Aishwarya Rai is of the Bunt / Shetty caste of Karnataka and she belongs to the caste of V.T. Rajashekar, the greatest intellectual of India after Babasaheb and editor of Dalit Voice. Dalit Voice is a magazine that inspired us to start Dalit Nation. The editor has worked with the great V.T. Rajashekar earlier and we have been inspired by him. Apart from Babasaheb and Kancha Ilaiah, VTR is our greatest inspiration. We have had several talks with VTR when he visited Oxford University in England. We have also had lengthy and stimulating discussions with VTR at his residence at palace lower orchards in Bangalore.
Bunts are a backward caste and VTR has written about it. Bunts are shudras. The oppressed people who have come from the feet of God. Aishwaraya proved to the world that she is the smartest and beautiful when she won the Miss World title. Brahmins the most cruel race in the world could never digest it. When Aishwarya Rai joined movies the brahmin and Bania toilet papers like Times of India, Hindu and Indian Express were seething with jealousy. They made claims that she does not know any acting. They always sided with their jatwallah actress like the maharistrian brahmins Madhuri Dixit and Sonali Bendre.
The wily upper caste people in Bollywood tried to set up Aishwarya Rai with the upper caste wallahs. But our Shudra sister Aishwarya never relented. It was during this time when she was harassed by these papans that Salman Khan rescued her. Salman Khan being a muslim wanted to get married to Aishwarya Rai and save her from the oppressive Hindu caste system. A system which has crushed and oppressed our men and especially women. But the upper caste wallahs started spreading all kinds of rumors about Salman Khan. They called him a cocaine addict. These brahmins can go to any length. They will tell what suits their need. Finally they implicated Salman Khan in a fake accident case. They split these two people so that Aishwarya can stay in the evil Hindu caste system. This is what all these upper caste people have been doing to Dalits so that they can never escape from their tyranny.
After this incident they did not leave Aishwarya alone. They hatched a conspiracy in UP and got the manuwadi Amar Singh to get Aishwarya married to Abhishek Bachan, a half upper caste sikh and brahmin. They even made Aishwarya marry a banana plant before this marriage. How these evil people oppress us there is no end. Aishwarya now no longer identifies with her Dalit brethren. She has been swallowed up by this upper caste conspiracy.
ruhi said
Never read a more ridiculous post in my life.
HIB said
This article – What kinda crap is this?
By such articles you are doing no good to dalitnation. You already lost my credibility.
dalitnation said
Ruhi Said – “Never read a more ridiculous post in my life.”
- Another brahminical upper caste mind who tries to ridcule us the Dalits.
mgb said
u people know only hating . like any indian idiot politician.
geyamala said
this article is a clear manifestation of people who are trying to divide people on the basis of caste and history falsified to suit their needs.
instead of posting this type of nonsense and propagating hatred against brahmins who are no more ruling class.
most of the land, power, industries are owned not by brahmins.
it is not brahmins who are pursuing two glass system in villages.
it is not brahmins who demolished babri maszid and perpetrated killing of innocent muslims in gujarat.
are multi billionaires like aishwarya rai who takes rs 6 crores to act in a movie belong to oppressed class?
it is not caste but the class that is to be taken into consideration.
check the data of people who commit atrocities and physical attacks on daliths and what is their caste.
geyamala said
bunts are not back ward caste people. they are rich and forward caste people.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunt_(community)
Radhey Shyam said
I am in complete agreement with the scholar who wrote this. I did not know that Aishwarya was also one among us. Yes I am a dalit and we belong to the Dhobi caste from UP. My blood is boiling now that Aishwarya is married to the Half Khatri / Kayastha – Half brahmin Abhishek. We should atleast make sure that your other sisters do not end up with the same fate and remain within our biradari.
Also please note I am a bachelor and if you have any phone number or email IDs of your other sisters who are similar to Aishwarya rai please let me know. I can marry her and prevent the evil upper caste people from enjoying our women. Jai Bhim
Pandey the Panda said
What a big and mighty heart you have Radhey. I am moved by your compassion for the cute Dalit girls. Although I am not a Dalit, I am giving you some references of other Bunt Girls in Bollywood like Shilpa Shetty and Shamitha Shetty. You can try your luck Radhey in saving them from upper caste hindus. Shilpa is a very rich girl after she won the reality show in UK. Look how they abused her racially. Poor rich girl. Radhey go for her man.
Onecleanbloke said
I was searching for Bunt and found this site. The author of the article is an idiot. Bunts are one of the richest people. This fellow is just making up theories from thin air. Bunts own all the major jewellery stores and hotels in Mumbai. Check out before writing this garbage.
dalitnation said
Onecleanoceanbloke –
I dont know whether you are a Bunt or not. Next time when you post please specify your caste. Don’t be a coward. Caste is not about being rich or poor. Just because Bunts own hotels and jewelery shops they don’t become upper caste. A brahmin who cannot afford one square meal a day can treat Bunt’s like filth. Don’t try to act caste blind and teach us. We have Babasaheb to guide us. He has liberated us. We can’t tolerate your nonsense anymore. Regarding Bunts our mentor the great dalit intellectual VT rajashekar is a Bunt and he is the most respected living scholar on Dalits today. By claiming that Bunts are upper caste don’t try to split the Dalits. We know all your gameplans.
ruhi said
Dalitnation,
I’m not an upper caste brahmin FYI. I don’t believe in this caste nonsense like you. The only thing that you seem to be focusing in this blog is the caste system, which should actually be the last thing you should be focusing upon! Shows how educated you are or how much you really understand.
I don’t know from where you got all this crap information. It would be great if you could provide a link. Looks like it is a figment of your imagination.
I would advice you not to draw conclusions over the caste of the people who comment on your blog without knowing anything.
dalitnation said
To Ruhi
We dont have much to say to people who have been brainwashed by the Brahminical forces. How can you be so heartless to the Sudras the people who have been oppressed for 5000 years. Shame on you.
devparna said
To Everyone,
THIS IS BY FAR THE MOST ENTERTAINING POST….
Thats all… and i am also impressed by the no of replies it has got… quite obvious for the kind of post it is…. Now can I please Laugh… HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Saint said
The author’s claim is not just about a caste or sect, it transpires beyond the social classification.
It is about the mutlilation of humanity and human dignity in the name of caste system, which is created by the Brahminical mafia. I am not in anyway saying all Brahmins are mafia, my closest friends and even family members are Brahmins, I am not. I am neither a Brahmin nor an Hindu, I lived, live and will die as a Buddhist, by following the most contemplative thoughts of Dr.Ambedkar and Lord Buddha.
I had several of my friends and colleagues from all the procrastinating caste terminology, never once anyone dare to argue, insult or name call me or the dalit caste when I am present, as they know I never believed in it nor I will let anyone walk away with abusive expressions as some commentors wrote here.
Along those lines, what this author says is “whoever he or she is”, a reality about “how woman are treated in India, irrestpective of whether she is a brahmin or any… that woman are treated just like dalits or even worst than dalits.
He has to narrate the background of Rai or other womans as bunts or whatever, yes this group of Indians are probably the richest or even wealthiest in various aspects, but when it come to the Brahminical Indians, these richie riches too will be treated like a third rated humans.
So he argues that do not let the woman beeing sabotaged by brahmins and do not let their rights and dignity is taken away by those casteistic people.
What is wrong in writing and telling the world as the author expressed, he/she is bit angered by the modern day slavery and casteism, he/she has the right to be say. How come half of the commentors here do not seems to use their thoughts without the chaturvarna inclination. You are diminishing you are ability to gain knowledge of the reality, besides beeing obnoxiosly rude to the author, if you open up your mind generously, you might learn something from this author here, if you do not take it, just leave him/her alone, do not abuse. Which only qualifies you to be part of the savage Brahminical clowns.
Vasudev akundi said
according to your website all the atrocities across the world are commited only by brahmins, right from the 1st world war, to the breaking of the bamiyan buddha statues by the taliban. yet brahmins were not banned by any international body; does it mean that the brahmins are super intelligent and have the brains to get away with anything they do…or does it mean that dalits have their brains in their arses ? even after 60 years of extreme marginalization and social outcasting of the brahmin community you inferior dalits still dread the intelligence of our community. I will die a proud brahmin….inspite of our very small numbers…we still command the power to fool you dalits.
Ekalavyan said
What Dalitnation has said is a truth. Upper caste criminals cannot understand this. Brahmins converted India into an intellectual desert. They believe only what they wanted toBelieve!!!!!
Mr. Shetty said
I am a Bunt and we are in no way related to the activities of Mr. V.T.Rajashekar. V.T. Rajashekar is also from our Shetty/Bunt community and is a big Hypocrite who has made bashing brahmins and jews as his profession. This man gets funds from all the anti national forces from the Gulf, Europe and america to support all the seccessionist movements in India like Khalisthan, Terrorism in North east, Tamil terrorism, Naxals, Kashmir terrorists. In the name of Dalits he is supporting terrorism in India. He is no intellectual. All he knows is a few cliches which he has been repeating over and over again since many decades. His main influence is the ‘Nation of Islam’ and like the nation of islam he has created a dalit centric history. His main aim is the dis integration and weakening of India. His main target is Hinduism in general and he does this by targetting upper caste people.
It is a well known fact that Bunts are very religious hindus. Bunts are also caretakers of many temples and they have looked after and cared for many poor brahmins. so what this person is talking is all nonsense.
The Author of this ridiculous article should understand that – Aishwarya Rai is neither oppressed nor a victim. She belongs to the elite strata of possibly the whole world. Salman Khan was an abusive person who has been booked under the wildlife act for killing engendered blackbucks as well as he has been involved in a accident which is a culpable homicide not accounting to murder. He is currently looking like he is being a reformed person. Even aishwaraya rai and salman khan will not agree with your article which is rubbish.
I am pretty sure you or your mentor Rajashekar have not helped Dalits in any way except in helping some self serving dalit politicians to come to power. I am very sorry for the Dalits if this is the kind of intellectual leadership they have. Instead of dividing people into communities we should all work together to uplift the underpreviliged of our soceity irrespective of whatever caste they belong to. The dalits have so many economic and social issues and living in appaling conditions.
Thunderdownunder said
I am completely in agreement with the author. I also think Marlyn Monroe was a dalit and John F Kennedy a Brahmin. We all know how marlyn was exploited. she finally commited suicide. Shame on the brahmins and jews for killing marlyn monroe.
HumanRightsWatch said
Hey guys. I have gone through this entire site and also Dalit voice. I have now understood all the rules on how the world works:
Anything Bad Anywhere in the World is created by Brahmins.
Dalits are the lowest caste being exploited by Brahmins.
Islam, Christianity and Buddhism are against Brahmins
Hinduism is the worst religion
All the ills of the world are caused by Hinduism all the other religions are great.
Carry on with the hate speech. You might get some charity from your slave masters.
King Kong said
hiya. I am not much of a fan of Aishwarya Rai. I feel she is beautiful with little acting talent. She is a barbie doll with few predictable expressions. Does these views qualify as brahminical barbarianism.
Bonzo said
I could not help myself laughing after reading this post. I was ROFL and LMAO. This is the best joke I heard today. Carry on with this work Dalitnation. I hope you will write more funny things like this in the future.
Brigadier said
The author is so knowledgeble I want to tell the author he has missed out on the conspiracy in the Miss India itself. Ash was second in miss india to Sushmitha sen. Now this was a great conspiracy. Not sure whether sushmitha sen is a brahmin. But ash should have gon to miss universe. Well brahmins will never allow the dalit aishwarya to be called miss universe… They want dalits only to go to miss world.
happyhindu said
hahaha!!!! Never read a funnier conversation than this entire post…..
dalitnation said
The Brahminical forces as usual are responding to this article and abusing us Dalits. They have thrived in abusing us from centuries and of course they have mastered it. How long will you all continue doing this. Just wait and you will see all your upper caste wallahs will be biting dust soon.
Many of you have abused the great V.T.Rajashekar. But you don’t realize that our mentor and inspiration VTR knows all your gameplans. He has been fighting with you singlehandedly for the last 25 years but now he is no longer alone. He has millions of Dalits supporting him and we at Dalitnation know this fact. This fact the Brahmins don’t see because they see only what they want to see and hear what they want to hear. They are like the three chinese monkeys.
We at dalitnation again pledge our support to the Dalit cause. The fake bunts who have responded to this post are all brahmins. Again I will reiterate Bunts are Sudras and exploited by Brahmins. This the upper castewallahs dont want to see. They are blind and want to make the whole world blind. But this deception is going to end soon. Wait till the Dalits come to power in Delhi. You can abuse as as much as you like we dont care.
chinesemonkeys said
Nope, we love you — for making us laugh so much
Alkhali said
Our dalit women need strong dalit bodies to produce strong dalit children. Dalit men wake up. Dont allow the pot bellied brahmins and banias to capture the dalit women.
Venugopal said
These people who have written this has no brians. what a stupid thing to call aishwarya as dalit. Just because some idotic dalit scholar VT rajshekar is bunt caste. bunt caste is a rich caste and not at all dalit. dont try to divert from the real issues of dalits which is discrimination and poverty. for all the people whoi comment here just writing these stupid articles and laughing at the cost of dalits is bad.
Ajatashatru said
This is an excellent article. This showcases many things:
1. Not all castes who call themselves dalit are poor and discriminated
2. Not all people who claim to represent dalits are dalits
3. Caste and Class are different.
4. A so called backward caste can be a rich class.
5. A forward caste person can be from the poor class.
6. Thousands of years of oppression is a joke because soceity is fluid
7. If caste is occupation then all film stars are one caste – the artist caste.
Let the people think on these things and you will get all the answers for social problems. This article is superb and gives a lot of food for thought. Carry on with the good work Dalit Nation.
Avinash said
Hi ppl….first of all I am a brahmin….so dalit nation can shred my views to pieces….
But dalitnation…wasnt this the reason why u hate brahmins? because they dont allow you to express your views…because we(anyone who does not subscribe to this blog’s views) are only trying to belittle dalits everywhere…well let me just prove my credentials…I work for an NGO called Bharat Uday Mission…I dont know(nor care) about what castes my fellow workers are from…neither do I worry about who I am helping…what are your credentials to belittle me?…who have you helped…have you done anything without worrying about which caste the person is from? I thought we were all Indians…who were trying to forgive and forget the past…dont forget that ppl in Tamil Nadu in the name of rationalism have garlanded lord Ganesh’s idol with slippers claiming they were destroying brahminism…but is an eye for an eye your philosophy? I never heard buddhism express that as their ideal….I am not justifying what my or your forefathers have done….I nor you can change that…but we can change whats happening around us cant we? This post has issues with caste system…will any sunni marry a shite? will any Roman Catholic marry a protestant? This ‘evil’ exists everywhere…but in different forms…but it is an evil nonetheless…if you want to remove castism then remove it first from your own head that you are a dalit…and then remove it from your friends that they belong to any caste at all….but I fear the biggest stumbling block would be who starts first…I have…with myself…I am a brahmin…I do what my religion tells me….but I dont discriminate…if everyone can do that we can live in peace…I hope dalitnation will forgive me if I said anything wrong…but if I did…try adding some rational explanation like Saint…
happyhindu said
Very well said Ajatashatru.
We are castes, not a nation. We become a nation only if we remove castes.
If indeed there was any oppression how come so many yadavs from the jat-land and shudras down south became rulers / feudal lords / kings.
The whole idea about caste is a political ploy by politicians to continue the ‘divide and rule’ legacy left by their erstwhile white masters. Its a complete sham.
Bidding 2007 a Final Good Bye « Time and Again said
[...] Authentic Voice of the Dalits. The author takes pleasure in analyzing every main stream event (even the crowning of Aishwarya Rai as Miss World) from a caste-system-point-of-vew. He abuses anyone who doesn’t agree with his narrow view [...]
Ankur Aggarwal said
come on film industry is filled with people without morals, or religion…
some sleep with anything that moves creeps or crawls.. some change the religion so that they can marry multiple number of times
how can such people claim to be of the high caste
dalitnation said
All the brahminical forces are afraid of the awakening of dalits. Hence you find all these posts ridiculing the dalits. There are some of the Brahmin Hindu Nazis who claim that they work in these or that NGOs and ask us what we do to alleviate the suffering of Dalits. We at Dalit Nation are furthering the cause of empowerment of Dalits. A cause which hits at the very root of the Brahminical social order. Just working in some silly so called social welfare organisation wouldn’t wash the blood on your hands. We have seen many such organisations and welfare organisations. We know of many lions clubs, donkey’s and monkeys clubs. At dalit nation we are working towards a revolution to topple the BSO and we will stop at nothing less. Let the oppresors have their time now. The future belongs to us – the shudra and ati shudras of india.
Dilip Muralidaran said
Dear Dalitnation,
Lions Club is a Recreational spot for people who have cash in their pockets and do not know what to do with free time. Having said that the Lions Blood bank is the largest of its kind in the country and helps many thousands of innocent dying civilians at free cost by gathering blood donors and donating blood to the needy when required.
Its a shame you cannot distinguish the difference between Lions Club and a Genuine NGO like Bharath Uday Mission. If you know what Bharath Uday Mission is then it is for starters an educational institution that gives free education to orphans and special schools in and across the city of chennai. I used to work myself for this NGO sometime ago.
Do you know as per the constitution of India it is Unconstitutional or to put it blatantly its criminal offense to address someone by the derogatory term “shudra” or “parayan” or “backward caste”.
You would be in Jail if someone here files a complaint in a police station. You could be in prison for weeks or months together for racial discrimination. Please stop calling anyone including yourself by that derogatory term “shud***”. Its offensive and its a crime.
non-chinesemonkeys said
Dalitnation,
Stop calling yourself the representative of all shudras. There are many shudras ashamed of you, including myself.
What blood does a brahmin have on his hands???
In future, you will be remembered for having the dirt of casteism on your hands.
Please answer me, if indeed there was any oppression, how did shudras become feudal lords / rulers – yadavs / jats in the north, nayaks in the south, even the mauryas (chandragupta, ashoka, etc) were not kshatriyas. If you dalits / shudras were put into a so-called brahminical social order, how did this happen?
dalitnation said
Most of the upper caste folks don’t know any history. They believe what they want to believe. Of course there were many shudra kings and rulers. Some like Chandragupta were used as puppets by the Brahmin machievelli chanakya. It was these wily brahmins who finally destroyed all the heritage of shudras and ati shudras. Read Ambedkar on how many of the Shudras rebelled against the BSO and how the brahmins reacted to it and finally destroyed shudra culture.
Now we are being educated on the constitution of India and also threatned that we will be jailed for using the term ‘Shudra’, a term used by brahminical oppressors against us. It is very strange the brahmins used to call us shudras and now when we even mention the name given by our oppressors it becomes a crime. It was we who told you the word Shudra is taboo and we always call ourselves as Dalits. It is your brahminical scriptures which call us Shudras, Chandalas and Mlecchas. Think about it, just to erase all history you want us to use the nomenclature that you give to us. The criminal Gandhi used to call us the’Harijans’, children of god. As if all the others are children of devils. Gandhi was an intellectual pygmy and it is a shame we call him the father of nation. Read the real father of our nation Babsaheb and you will undestand how shudras were created by brahmins. We never call ourselves Shudras as it is derogatory. It is your silly cock and bull rig vedic purusha suktha which called us and condemned as Shudras. First ban this Rig veda and then talk about constitution and rights. This horrible peice of crap called Purusha Suktha claims that Shudras come from the feet of their god. This is repeated every day in your temples by the preists. First go and ban all these and then talk to us. Don’t give us lectures on filing complaints in police stations. First go and examine your scriptures and temples and what these idiotic brahmin preists recite and parrot day in and day out. Then you will know who can be imprisoned.
It is because of this constitution drafted by the greatest intellectual and the real father of nation Ambedkar that all these upper caste people are crying hoarse. Now the constituion grants equal rights to everyone something which the Brahmins could never comphrehend. Hence the problem for the Brahmins. Now they talk of equality, humanism and all those things which are very foreign to them. They don’t have any option as their days are numbered. They create NGOs and claim that they work for some of the dispossed so that they can maintain the status quo and enjoy their rights. We know very well all these NGOs and how the urban elite brahminical upper classes working for these NGOs. Just another ploy like Gandhi’s ‘Harijan’ strategy to exploit dalits. Sorry no takers among the Dalits for your new games. Try something else.
Dilip Muralidaran said
You really are a racist aren’t you? Just based upon your pure logic that every brahmin is a oppressing upper class racist in itself shows how much disregard you have for logic and common sense. The very fact that you consider no brahmin can genuinely work for any Charitable organization or an NGO states how cruel minded a prick you are.
Gandhi was a criminal in many ways but Gandhi was also the reason why today you are here writing this in a public forum such as the internet. If not for Gandhi there would have been no awareness amongst the oppressors that calling someone a “Shudhra” and treating them inferiorly based on their social profiling is a wrong doing. Much of Ambedkar’s ideology clearly supports and has strong foundations in Gandhism.
Its quite a pity you have no clue about the history yet talk about Ambedkar as if he was your uncle and he told you everything you know about him now when in reality you are as confused and ill minded as your dalit political counterparts who take advantage of poor dalits for a mere vote bank cause.
praf t said
This guy dalit nation is a muslim mullah trying to divide hindus.
happyhindu said
There are 2 sides to life:
1) The evil side: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119870649955551321.html?mod=googlenews_wsj and this: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2008/01/08/basant108.xml
2) The good side:
http://www.sulabhtoiletmuseum.org/profile.htm
Which side you want to be on depends on whether you genuinely want to remove ‘caste’ from our ’system’ irrespective of whatever ‘caste’ or ’system’ you are born into.
Please remember:
1) All ‘upper caste’ people do not hate ‘lower caste’ people.
2) All ‘lower caste’ people do not hate ‘upper caste’ people.
dalitnation said
So we are trying to divide hindus. These brahmins are so pathetic. It is they who created Jati and Varna and now they say we are dividing Hindus. Go look at your Manusmrithi, the filthy shit you Brahmins created and then you will know who divided Hindus. The dalits were never Hindus infact you never even wanted us as Hindus. Now you are crying that we are mullahs and missionaries. Look We are dalits and non hindus and we are buddhists follower of Babasaheb. So don’t try your brahminical tricks with us.
happyhindu said
I might just agree with you dalitnation on one thing — like buddhism, sometimes I think Jainism is the best form of faith — no varna, no jati, nothing — its a liberating and empowering feeling.
happyhindu said
But again please remember: All so-called ‘upper caste’ people do not hate so-called ‘lower caste’ people. All so-called ‘lower caste’ people do not hate so-called ‘upper caste’ people.
happyhindu said
It would also be nice to rememebr that not all hindu scriptures are so polarized. Some are, not all (example: Krishna said: Karmeva gururishvara (Karma alone is man’s guru, nothing but karma alone is his Ishwara)).
Like I accept my loved ones and myself with all the good and bad in us / me, I accept my religion too with its good and bad. Like no human being is perfect, no religion is perfect too. We all just aim for perfection in every lifetime.
fallen monk said
Happyhindu said : “All so-called ‘upper caste’ people do not hate so-called ‘lower caste’ people. All so-called ‘lower caste’ people do not hate so-called ‘upper caste’ people.”
It doesn’t matter if 0.001 % “upper” castes do not hate the “lower” castes , because a clear majority is as good as all.Dalitnation’s views are quite interesting , but they are quite exaggerated too.Ash’s marriage to a tree is a completely ridiculous , brahminical and funny event.I am sure all the world must have had a good laugh seeing this.
Hinduism is complete bullshit.It is alone the most prominent factor for the pathetic, underdeveloped and corrupt condition of India , as it is now.For Indian to develop , hinduism must be rooted out from here.
Some idiots are claiming that the author of this blog is a mullah whose trying to divide the hindus.These hindus are complete ignorants , as they have no knowledge of their own religion (if it can be called so) , but they do not hesitate to claim their religion as the greatest and the truest in the world.
The very basis and foundation of Hinduism is division.We , the oppressed and discriminated , have no choice but to talk in terms of the oppressors.Hence , we use terms like sudras , brahmins etc , and not because we want to divide people.We stand for true equality.
fallen monk said
I don’t know why so many brahmins (in fact , hindus) took the effort of checking this link out even though the URL of this blog contains the word “dalit”.These hindus are taking lots of interest in dalits , adivasis and other minorities nowadays.I am sure they are associated with some right wing fascist hindu organizations like RSS , and , being brainwashed by the religion as well as the organization , have the motive of weakening the dalit ideology.
Retaliation by the dalits (the oppressed) is inevitable when the hindus have been oppressing us since ages.There is a limit to the patience of any human being.Why are these hindus surprised now?
I request my brethren – all who stand for equality , including the dalits – that we must not let our determination be weakened by these cowardice tactics of the hindus.
fallen monk said
I came across a post by a gentleman claiming to be a shudra and yet supporting the Hindu structure.This is not surprising as he is a Hindu at the end of the day.He is happy being in the bottom of the hindu social ladder and , perhaps , is unaware that the reverred manusmriti is harshest on him and his brethren.Such sudras are even more dangerous than the brahmins themselves.They are bootlickers of the “upper” caste hindus and are happy being in the position they are.
It is better to ignore such boot-lickers.
Naveen Rudriah said
I am a dalit and I belong to a Scheduled Caste community of Karnataka. I am in the state administrative service. I am involved in some dalit organizations and we work for the upliftment for dalits and their rights. Our families are staunch Hindus since many many generations. Our family deity is Marikamba of Banvasi and have ties with the temple trust since generations. There are many in our families who are in government service and we are being forced from so called dalit leaders to fight against Hinduism and become Christians, Muslims or Budhists. I have been personally asked by some so called dalit christians to come and join christianity and abuse hinduism and I have been promised many financial benefits. I know of many of my friends and relatives who are dalits who have also been asked these things. I was educated in the Ramakrishna mission and I hold Swami Vivekanada and Mahatma Gandhi as some of my Idols.It was Mahatma Gandhi who stopped the animal sacrifice in Marikamba temple in Banavasi. I have great regards for Babasaheb Ambedkar and agree with him in all counts except on the fact of ridiculing hinduism. Hinduism like other religions had / has many evils. But it is a great religion and gives utmost importance to spirituality and humanism. All the abuse heaped by these so called dalits cannot change this relaity of Hinduism. What is important is to understand that we are all one human race and not create more divisions.
I have interacted with many many brahmins and other so called upper caste and have never been discriminated or anything. Most of them don’t even know what manusmrithi is. Infact it is the others who know more about manusmrithi than brahmins. I have always been on an equal footing with everyone. I don’t believe in caste and all that non sense. I have also not been subjected to any discrimination. But I know that dalits have been discriminated for generations but just abusing Hinduism due to some vested intrest is very dangerous for our country. ALso dalits have been discriminated not just by Hindus but by christians and muslims also. One more thing most Dalits know is that it is these so called savoirs of Dalits who belong to OBC and BC castes who have exploited dalits more than Brahmins. I know many Brahmins among my teachers and they have been the most ideal people with highest human values that I have ever seen in my life. There are many anti-national forces who are now mascarading as saviors of dalits. Their only agenda is to denigrate Hinduism, disintegrate india and convert people to islam and christianity. I have been approached by many organizations to work for them as we have a strong support in North and central karnataka. Some of these organizations are dangerous and they have anti national agenda. In Karnataka we have the Dalit Sangarshana Samithi, Joseph D Souza of Indian Christian council who hide themselves as Dalit freedom network and dalit voice of V.T.Rajashekar. It should also be understood that most of these people like V.T. Rajashekar, Joseph D SOuza and Kancha Iliaih are not dalits. V.T.Rajashekar is a shetty, Joseph D Souza is a goan christian and D souza’s are all converted to christianity from brahmins during portugese rule. Kancha Iliaih is from the Kuruma community and not a dalit. So all these people talking about are not from any oppressed caste. I know from some close associates that they have ties with terrorist organizations and dalit empowerment id just a mask they use. Some of the people in my family converted to buddhism as shown by babasaheb but the irony is they are only buddhists politically and they are hindus by all standards. and another funny thing is every year in october and december they again reconvert to buddhism in political functions. We need to be wary of all these forces who are trying to garner our support and use us to further some anti national agendas.
Indopilia said
@Fallen Monk –
“” don’t know why so many brahmins (in fact , hindus) took the effort of checking this link out even though the URL of this blog contains the word “dalit”.”"
I don’t think you know how to read. The caption of the article says “Aishwarya Rai victim of brahmin conspiracy”. So brahmins like me are just curious what this great conspiracy is. As it turns out we realize that people who have wrriten this and people like you who support it are absolute morons who talk about all high sounding words. Can there be anything more ridiculous than this article. All that stuff like Aishwarya Rai being prevented from marrying salman khan and all that. I initially encountered this article while searching for Bollywood conspiriacies. When i read it the first time I thought this is some kind of satire and then I realised that this fellow who wrote this is quite serious. Can there be anything more ridiculous than this article. Also this blog has nothing much to do with Dalits and just bashes Brahmins without any rhyme or reason. It should be appropriately titled ‘Brahmin Bashing Nation’.
Also you make unfounded claims like “Social Hierarch and conrol in hinduism. Can you tell me one single organization or a group of organizations like your muslim or christian establishments that Hindus have and who belive in the caste system and controlling and maintaining it. Basically the caste hierarchies do not have any central control and it is more like to each his own.
Dilip Muralidaran said
“Hinduism is complete bullshit.It is alone the most prominent factor for the pathetic, underdeveloped and corrupt condition of India , as it is now.For Indian to develop , hinduism must be rooted out from here.”
- fallen monk, your claims are baseless. If rooting out religion is the answer to everything (although im glad to root out all religion since im an atheist myself) then Christianity and Islam should go first. Both these religions claim the no believers to be infidels and claim everyone should be converted by any means possible, either by persuasion or by force (read as kill if not converted).
While i agree hinduism is complete bullshit its certainly better shit compared to the former two i mentioned. Christianity and Islam both of them do not consider a female perspective of god. God is all male to them, rules are made by men and for men, women have nothing and are more or less cattle.
At least in this perspective hinduism has millions of female dieties and claims every being is equally man and woman and represent both. For this reason alone Hinduism is a better evil than male chauvinistic Christianity and Islam.
Shariat laws can kill women if even they suspect adultery, no need to prove. Similarly the Book of Genesis claims the Woman is under the man and is his will.
Although Hinduism also has the devadasi system this is a 1000 year old practice that does not exist anymore. Manu scripts are things people even dont know exist today. Any religion (despite the evil) that does not force itself on others by any means is good enough. We live in a egalitarian society. Nobody has the right to force anything on us. Not even Christ or Mohammed.
fallen monk said
Why are the hindus dragging other religions into the discussion?Some are even giving long explanations of how and why other religions are so inferior to hinduism?I am not surprised however.Since , hindus do not have any knowledge of their scriptures and religion , it is inevitable that they will be interested to comment about other religions.It is not uncommon for a hindu to bash Islam and christianity and praise his/her own religion as the greatest and truest?Neither me nor any other dalit in this blog has even mentioned the name of Islam and christianity.Who cares what other religions preach?It isn’t worth replying them.
However , there is one post by a supposed dalit , as he claims himself to be , which intrigues me the most.He is proud of belonging to a religion , the scriptures of which clearly state his position with that of the animals.In fact , some animals like cow are given much better position than him and his brethren.The hindus have only given him derogatory terms like “achhut” , “mleccha” , “chandala” etc etc.Such people are far more dangerous than the oppressors themselves.He claims that since , after serving their “upper” caste masters , he has never been discriminated , that means that no dalit is being oppressed.I request my brethren to be wary of such venoms in their endeavor to live with pride and dignity.
Shankara said
I am a brahmin and a practising brahmin and since this whole site is avowedly anti brahimin It is incumbent on me to reply on these idiotic subjects written by this acidhead who claims to be representing Dalits and a so called dalit nation and also respond to ‘Fallen Monk’. First this is an extremely idiotic article and quite comical also (aishwarya rai, abhishek bachan and salman khan and all that stuff). That this post is getting so much importance and even respect from this guy called ‘Fallen Monk’ shows the extent to which anti-Hindu propoganda and Hindu bashing has stooped into. Can it get more absurd than this.
Fallen monk says “Why are the hindus dragging other religions into the discussion?Some are even giving long explanations of how and why other religions are so inferior to hinduism?”
Why other religions are dragged into discussion is because under the guise of Dalits these proselytizing religions are encouraging a malicious campaign against Hindus and Hinuduism. Just look at the dalit nation site and they have explicitly stated their love of these other religions and also their aim is to convert all Hindus into these religions. They have also pitted Hindusims Vis a Vis other proselytizing religions as if all these religions are paragons of virtue. Ever heard of slave trade, crusades and burning witches.
Fallen Monk says “Since , hindus do not have any knowledge of their scriptures and religion”
This is an old evangelical and mulla claim on Hinduism. Practising Hindus are highly knowledgeable about their religion and scriptures. Hindus also place a very high regard on scriptural scholarship. But unfortunately for people like ‘Fallen Monk’ these scriptures he talk about are the scriptures that evangelists and mullahs appropriate on Hinduism. Hinduism unlike the semetic religions have many different scriptures and not one single body of work like Quran or bible. The idea that Hindus don’t have knowledge of their religion is a old propoganda created first by the Muslim invaders and strengthened by the british. The knowledge of Hindu scriptures according to these people should only be confined to Manusmrithi ( a smrithi of several hundred verses out of which 6 of these verses describe caste system and oppression on women) and a few other texts they themselves use to define Hinduism. This is the same propoganda which the so called dalit movement also plays with and uses it as their philosophical foundation. Manusmrithi’s high importance in the hindu scriptural tradition was created by the British and they excluded all the other Hindu scriptures like the vedas, vedanta, agama, yoga, sankya and tantras. The fact that your phislosophical masters confine Hinduism to only one single smrithi (remember smrithi as against shruthi is inferior and can be overridden) shows your profound ignorance of Hinduism. Also for your information the most popular Hindu scriptures were authored and revealed by Dalits. Ever heard of Veda Vyasa and Valmiki. Also Hindu scriptures are not confined to sanskrit scriptures but also have the teachings of innumerable number of gurus and traditions in vernacular languages. As a practising brahmin I can tell you the scriptures we refer in our traditions and (unfortunately for you and the other hindu bashers) Manu Smrithi does not figure prominently in this. If you want to know more about Brahmin practices you can contact me and I will give you a first hand account on our practices and beliefs. This is an unchanged tradition since several centuries going across to millenia. Every day as a brahmin I pray and practice ‘Lokaha samsthaha sukino bavanthu’ that is the well being of all sentient beings.
You say “It is not uncommon for a hindu to bash Islam and christianity and praise his/her own religion as the greatest and truest?”
As a matter of fact it is quite uncommon for Hindus to bash Islam and christianity as against how the latter religions do to Hinduism. Just observe and see all the popular mass movements of Hinduism and you will find they are inclusive of all religions and speak and practice ’sarva dharma samadhbhava’. Also you won’t find any mass movement of Hinduism which supports caste system. Just name one of them. If you find such a one you won’t have any trouble to get all the hindus including the so called upper, lower and middle caste who will fight against it. That you find that Caste system is an inseparable part of Hinduism shows your ignorance of Hinduism and also shows the extent and the roots of how you identify with a propoganda created by the British in the 1800’s. Hindus bashing christinity and Islam is a reaction against the vicious and high sounding campaign these religions have made against Hinduism. The fact that you only find Hindus bashing islam and christianity is that your experience of Hinduism is confined only to those spaces of inter religious conflict (like the current website). It is a big world out there. Just go and see.
Also it is implicit in your post that Hindus should remain silent when abused. How has this belief come about – the image of the tolerant and submissive hindu so submissive even to the extent of even denying himself or herself the right to assert his beliefs and identity. This is because of the centuries of political oppression on Hindus. Why does Muslims and Christians find it a problem if a Hindu just claims that he is a Hindu and asserts his identity. Ever wonder why?
Also your call for dalits to dissociate from Hinduism shows your highest ignorance.There are many hindu temples owned controlled and run by dalits. I know and visit many of them. The majority of dalits you talk about are staunch hindus. My one simple question and a question asked by some people on this article is – who is controlling the caste system. Please tell us that central organization(s) who are doing this. Is it the Brahmins? India has a constitution and also civil codes for Hindus, Muslims and chrstians. Your argument is just a ’strawman argument’ against the Brahmins. Since when did Brahmins ever get political power in India. India was ruled by Kshatriyas, Jains, Buddhists, Muslims, Rajputs, Marathas, Portugese, Dutch, French and British in its long history. There were many rulers from Backward castes and dalits. It is only as a result of democracy some brahmins could be elected to power in independent india since 1947. This was through a legitimate and democratic process. All these brahmins fought against the caste system and other practices. Have you ever heard of Jawaharlal Nehru and Krishna Menon. Give me an instance when these people supported caste system. Even some teachers of Ambedkar, Joythi Phule and Narayan Guru who encouraged them to fight against the caste system and social ills were Brahmins. Ambedkar himself has acknowleged this. Brahmins have been the most progressive people in this country as compared to many other communities and they have been unfairly maligned. There has always been class struggles in every feudal soceity and India is no exception. Europe, China and the arab world are no exceptions for this, they have had higher degrees of genocide, racial abuse and slavery as compared to India. Abusing Hinduism for these fuedal practices is absolute nonsense.
Hindusim and India has had several reform movements to correct the social evils like untouchability and violence. We had great reformers from Bassavanna, Ramanuja to vivekanada and Gandhi who were opposed to all the social evils and stood for a Humanitarian and a just world. Also their reforms were firmly rooted in Hindu values and they had a timelessness about them. They even cut across religious barriers as they spoke of eternal values of sanatana dharma. Your unwillingness to see this and just abuse Hinduism shows your extraordinary stupidity. Tell me one popular modern Hindu religious mass leader who has called Dalits as Achut and untouchables and called for oppression of dalits. There are none. There are many modern Hindu leaders from dalit backgrounds who have large followings across all Hindus and spiritual people of other religions. Ever heard of Mata Amritananda Mayi. Just repeating a lie again and again does not become truth.
fallen monk said
First of all , let me tell you that I am not associated with dalit nation.I have also acknowledged in one of my earlier posts that this article is , indeed , quite exaggerated.Nevertheless , it does have some truth in it.
It is not necessary to “love” one religion to bash another.I (don’t know about dalit nation) condemn hinduism for reasons , without actually being biased towards others.Almost all religions have inflicted tyranny on people.
It is true , however , that most hindus have no knowledge of their scriptures.Your case is quite exceptional , as you happen to be a brahmin , the keeper of the scriptures.And even among brahmins there are only few left who are having even little knowledge about the scriptures.
You are quite paradoxical , as you write a long passage showing the little significance of caste system in hinduism , but at the same time state that you are a practicing “brahimin” (i.e belonging to a caste).I stand for complete eradication of castes and caste system.I am sure you , being a hypocrite , wouldn’t want castes to be dissolved.The fact that some epics are authored by dalits doesn’t make them immune to discrimination and oppression.The reality is that dalits are considered “untouchables” , “low” , “impure” etc in the minds of caste hindus , no matter if the constitution forbids it.The way you mention evils of other religions like slavery , witchcraft etc makes it sound like a justification of caste system.Who cares what other religions are infliciting on its “followers”?You say that class system and oppression has existed in almost all parts of the globe.But there is one more fact that you should keep deep in your mind so that you never forget : because of this oppression there has always been a rebellion too to overthrow the older system.
You ask who is controlling the caste system?But your efforts in depicting yourself as an innocent are too weak.You know very well , being a brahmin , that castes exist in the mind of every hindu and although no one directly reads the scriptures that profess such practices , but every hindu learns it from his elders about caste and how it should be practiced.Every hindu father passes these “values” to his son.
Even your brahmin brethren have different opinions about caste nowadays.Some justify it using genes , impurity etc , some are little apologetic , some are hypocrites like you who deny any importance of caste system but are staunch followers, some proudly practice it.But there is one thing common among you all.That you all do follow caste system and this is deeply engraved in your minds.
Throw away your ignorance that dalits require other religions to thwart hinduism.Many , like me , being atheists , religionless , do not require any religion to fight caste system (read hinduism) and its followers.And also remember , this fight is not only for oppression it is also for misinformation about religion , gods , tradition etc that you spread and have spread since ages.
ga kunder said
hi
i am from udupi, i like reading , as per my knowlege bunts,billavas and mogaveera from udupi are lowercaste people, right now bunts are financialy strong they and bramans making them feel they fallen from sky,because bramans other places are resrved for other caste(like,mouth,nabi,feet), now billavas and mogaveeras also becoming strong, what catagoery bramanas put them let’s see, and poor koragas routhlessley beaten by bramanas for centurys still messing with life. Is contacting V.T. Rajashekar is legel, i heard he was arrested on 1986 for antinationalist activites. i am nationalist. but i like to email him beacause he is from native place.can you provide me his email id.
Shankara said
“You are quite paradoxical , as you write a long passage showing the little significance of caste system in hinduism , but at the same time state that you are a practicing “brahimin” (i.e belonging to a caste).I stand for complete eradication of castes and caste system”.
Fallen Monk read my post properly before commenting.Where have I condoned the caste system. In fact I also stand for the complete eradication of caste and caste system.
My being a brahmin has nothing to do with caste system. I have strong scriptural foundations in the Hindu vedic traditions which support it. Do you know that the definition of a brahmin as per the vedas – ‘Brahmin means one who strives to know Brahman – or truth’. Even the Bhagavad Gita the most widely respected book of Hindus uphold that the Brahmin is based on Guna (Psychological inclinations and qualities) and Karma (the kind of work a person does) and not on birth. What is wrong with being a brahmin. My being a brahmin has no reference to anyone or is not disparaging of any community. It is a spiritual path I follow. Also the spiritual path teaches me discipline, love of all people and overcoming my conditionings and shortcomings.
You say “Even your brahmin brethren have different opinions about caste nowadays.Some justify it using genes , impurity etc , some are little apologetic , some are hypocrites like you who deny any importance of caste system but are staunch followers, some proudly practice it. You ask who is controlling the caste system?But your efforts in depicting yourself as an innocent are too weak.You know very well , being a brahmin , that castes exist in the mind of every hindu and although no one directly reads the scriptures that profess such practices , but every hindu learns it from his elders about caste and how it should be practiced.Every hindu father passes these “values” to his son.”
You talk as if you represent and know the opinion of all Brahmins. Can you atleast give references of organisations of brahmins who have claimed any of these things. I have read the literature and speeches of the brahmana sabhas both in India and the US and nowhere have they spoken about the things you talk about. You are just good at throwing baseless arguements. I wonder who is a hypocrite. You just parrot and repeat the same accusations on the Brahmins as said by Islamists, evangelists, marxists and vicious subalterns like this dalit nation. Calling me a hypocrite is an ad hominem argument and has no logical basis. That you repeat that caste system is synonymous with Hinduism shows your ignorance of Hinduism and the extent to which you believe in the propoganda created by you know who. You haven’t been able to answer a simple question of how brahmins could oppress people without any political power. Your words are filled with lies and malicious propoganda. How do you know that every Hindu father passes all these so called values to his son. It is similar to the arguments of Kancha Ilaiah has made in his book that every Hindu father and Mother are vicious people.
Your argument as I have repeated earlier is based on creating a strawman out of Brahmins. It is quite similar to accusing all Christians of all times and places of burning witches and murdering people in crusades. It is also quite similar to accusing all muslims of spreading their brand of religion through conquests and pillaging of civilizations and also accusing all Muslims as Suicide bombers. Can I also accusse you who are an atheist for creating the pograms killing millions and millions of people in the atheistic communist goverments of Stalin and Pol pot. Obviously that would be a ridicoulous accusation. So is your tirade against Hindus and brahmins.
It is my fundamental right to follow my spiritual practice as long as it falls within and complies with the democratic and humanitarian values enshrined in our constitution. And your call to fight and destroy Hinduism is fascist and vicious and against the fundamental right of religion enshrined in the constitution of India.
Infact Hinduism as a religion has a strong atheistic and agnostic tradition within itself. There have been atheists and materialists like Charvaka and the lokayathas and atheistic philosophies like Sankya. Your avowed aim of destroying religion and converting everyone to your brand of atheism can be best acheived if you concentrate your energies towards the two strong monotheistic proselytizing religions of Christianity and Islam. Hindusim infact is a politically weak and non proselytizing religion and is no threat to your atheistic beliefs as compared to christianity and islam. Obviously you wouldn’t have the guts to do that as you are content in attacking the strawman Hindus and Hinduism without knowing even the bare minimum of its teachings. Wonder who is a hypocrite.
fallen monk said
Let me begin my reply to you with your definition of the brahmin : “Brahmin means someone who strives to know Brahman”.This definition is given in the upanishads and not the vedas.The oldest reference to varna system is in the Rig veda wherein the four classes are said to have emerged from purusha-suktha.Being a brahmin , you must be aware of it too.Along with it there are various smritis (like manusmriti) , brahmanas etc , which although were written well after Buddhism had already been established as a major religion , which gave detailed exposition of castes and duties , with exclusice rights being given to the brahmins and down upto the sudras in decreasing “ranks” (notice that there was no “oucaste”).Bhagwat Gita’s verse that you have shown is merely a restatement of this division only with an additional reason attached to this division.Bhagwat Gita was also written in the time when Jainism and Buddhism were far more widespread than the vedic religion.
The concept of “karma” , “re-incarnation and incarnation” , “vegetarianism” etc is not even mentioned in the vedas.I challenge you if you could show me any verse , among the millions , in the first three vedas which even mention terms like “karma” or “re-incarnation”.I can’t comment on the fourth one , as it was written in the post-Buddha period and also I am not well acquainted with it.Coming back to the definition of Brahmin , which emerges from the upanishads and most likely written in the post-Buddha period , would you yourself , being a brahmin (by birth) , consider more authentic than that of the vedas themselves?
So much so for the scriptures , even if the scriptures didn’t contain such horrific verses agains humanity, this wouldn’t change the current (and past) reality – that which dalits had to suffer for so long and continue to suffer.
You gave example of athiest stalin and nazi christian and claim that all brahmins are not oppressive.I don’t know what kind of brahmin you are.Even if you never discriminated against any of “lower” castes in your life , your case would still be that of an atheist stalin who is not representative of all atheists.There may be few brahmins who are modern in thinking , but most still remain oppressive and suffer from extraordinary superiority complex.To be frank , I have nothing against brahmins , as already I don’t believe in caste system.In fact , I would rather support the preservation of Brahminic culture which is dying in this modern age (modernization and rationality is against brahminicism)
, as most brahmins are moving west.As it is they are so few in numbers , so it hardly matters what Brahmins alone practice.
But I cannot tolerate the casteism and oppression coming from the hindus towards my brothers and sisters.This hinduism is a result of Brahminism and so , to eradicate caste system (Hinduism) we have no choice but to strike at its heart – brahminism.
Don’t remind me again and again of Christianity and Islam.I know they too are shit , just like Hinduism.
happyhindu said
Thanks Shankara. Your writing is much admired.
All I have realized everywhere is that religion is a tool of social and political manipulation.
Theoretically speaking, religion is fixed within certain boundry lines of faith; and adhering to a religion itself means non-acceptance of other forms of faith / other schools of thot (naturally ‘growth’ becomes limited / ceases to exist in these cases).
Sanatana is not exactly a religion — it is an amalgamation of various philosophies — it allows us to ponder and grow spiritually — it has always been about the “growth of the mind” (brahman: brah – grow, man – mind) and attaining the nirvikalpa samadhi as the ultimate; and contributing to civilization / science, etc along the way.
However, outfits like dalitnation and people like Kancha Iliah are so supportive of theoretical religion (with Kancha openly supporting evangelism), that their credibility comes under cloud.
A brahman has always been a man of austerity not of birth. After buddhism, it just became a tradition to pass on the baton from father to son — as a means to keep the vedic schools of thot (encompassing theism, agnosticsm and even atheism) alive.
A hindu needs a brahmin as much as a brahmin needs a hindu. Its not about reinforcing ‘casteism’ but about keeping sanatana going.
Shankara said
@Fallen Monk – A long response to you
Let me begin my reply to you with your definition of the brahmin : “Brahmin means someone who strives to know Brahman”.This definition is given in the upanishads and not the vedas.
The Upanishads are called vedanta meaning the culmination of vedas. They are not opposed to Vedas and are very much a part of them but unlike the Karma Kanda’ of the vedas which is based on rituals the upanishads termed as Jnana Kanda bring about a reformed form of metaphysical knowledge. This again shows the reformatory elements even in the very beginning of the Brahmin tradition. The oldest reference to the four varnas are in Purusha Suktha. Again the description of purusha suktha is highly symbolic of the purusha with sub divisions of social occupations as related to the bodily parts of the metaphorical Purusha. Can you give me one instance in Rig Veda where varna is mentioned as inherited through heredity. The sociological classification of four varnas mentioned in the Rig Veda is true to any society in the world past, present and future. Don’t we have White collared, Blue collared and all kinds of classifications of workers in the modern day world say in New york or California state. Also for your information there are references in the Upanishads mocking the hereditary classification of varnas wherein the Upanishadic gurus have accepted disciples cutting across caste, class and gender divides. Also remember all this was 3000 years ago. The upanishads have been dated by most historians (even of the left, centre and imperial) to be around 500 – 800 BC. The brahminical cannon has undergone several reformations and redefinitions since then ; primarily due to the efforts of the three latter day acharyas Shankara, madhva and Ramanuja. Brahmins of all denominations consider Vedanta, Brahma Sutras and Bhagwad Gita as the three important canons of their knowledge and practice. All these are derivates of the Vedas and are called as Prasthana Traya.
Also the caste system in present day India has nothing to do with Vedas much less Vedanta and chaturvarna classification is not evidenced in India other than the conjectures and hypothesis of sociologists with vested interests on this communal and social phenomenon. We now have hundreds and thousands of castes based on historical community and heriditary inheritance. We have every other caste (read community) claiming to be superior than the other. For example the Bunts are a trading community (or caste) have european and mediterranian genetic links which came about through the naval trade in coastal south India. The genetic studies on Bunts have confirmed this. Bunts are a highly exclusive group and they do not encourage inter mingling with other communties w.r.t marriage. It is the same in case of the Parsi community in india. That is one reason why you find caste even in Christian and Muslim communities in India. In India caste is not endemic to Hinduism alone. Caste and social stratification have solidified because of occupational identity and a response to political instability due to invasions. Caste had proved to be a survival mechanism in medeival India.
Bhagwat Gita was also written in the time when Jainism and Buddhism were far more widespread than the vedic religion.
The Bhagavad Gita could have been written at a later date than Buddha and Mahavira but in theology there are no elements of Buddhism and Jainism in Bhagwad Gita and the Gita is a text which is an amalgamation and synthesis of Sankya, Vedanta of Upanishads and the yoga of patanjali. There is no reference to say the non-self doctrine of buddhists or the anekantavada of Jainism in the Gita. Anyway what are you trying to prove by providing the dating of Bhagavad Gita. There is no conclusive proof from any of the historians on the dates of this scripture. Why should this date matter to you. Does it cause any trouble to your statements that the Bhagavad Gita talks about timeless spiritual truths and you want to ascribe these beliefs to the influence of Jainism and Buddhism.
The concept of “karma” , “re-incarnation and incarnation” , “vegetarianism” etc is not even mentioned in the vedas.I challenge you if you could show me any verse , among the millions , in the first three vedas which even mention terms like “karma” or “re-incarnation”.I can’t comment on the fourth one , as it was written in the post-Buddha period and also I am not well acquainted with it.
Karma, reincarnation and vegetarianism is not mentioned in the karma kanda of the Vedas true. What about it. But in the Jnana Khanda of the Vedas (Upanishads- Vedanta) we have several verses talking about these (not vegetarianism though). Also historians agree that Upanishads were before much before Buddhism. The Buddha mentions the belief of Atma (the Self – Brahman, Atman expounded in Upanishads) and he gives a rebuttal on this atman. So there was certainly this knowledge and system very much in place. Regarding Vegetarianism in the modern world, the Jains and Brahmins have the highest number of Vegetarians as compared to any community. As a Brahmin I practice and treasure this practice of Vegetarianism as highly ethical, humanitarian and compassionate towards the whole of existence. Do you find this as a problem? Is there something wrong in Vegetarianism?
Coming back to the definition of Brahmin , which emerges from the upanishads and most likely written in the post-Buddha period
Certainly not. Buddha as a matter of fact has referenced the definition of Brahmin and this is existent in many of the Buddhist sutras. Buddha criticized the bad practices of Brahmins during his times and also highlighted the real and better aspects of Brahmins. If you need to know more about this check out Buddhist sutras like Annatara Brahmana Sutta, Cankii Sutta, Janussoni Brahmana Sutta and even the Dhammapada in the canto of the brahmin. Don’t tell that these were doctored by the Brahmins as these form part of the tripitaka pali canon – the essential teachings of Buddha. There are many other references Sutras in the tipitaka pali cannon talking about Brahman and Brahmins. So it is absolute nonsense that the definition of Brahmin came from the post Buddhistic period. You are probably reading too much of subaltern writings which is considered trash by legitimate historians. That Buddhism is opposed to so called Brahminism is again a myth perpetrated by these psuedo subaltern historians and scholars. Their argument can be blown to bits even using recorded Buddhist History by Buddists themselves. Majority of the disciples of Buddha were brahmins – subuthi, mahakashyapa and many others. Even the latter day Buddhist scholars like Nagarjuna, Nagasena, Bodhidharama, Padmasambhava, Ashvagosha and many many others were Brahmins. Essentially Buddhism was a monastic order which had its members from many communities and Brahmins were also part of it and also it is evident from Buddhist writings that Buddhism and brahmins always peacefully co-existed.
That Brahmins borrowed vegetarianism from Jains and Buddhists is again a myth. Before the advent of Mahavira and the Buddha there were Shramanas who comprised of ascetics and who were mainly Brahmins. They were vegetarians and lived on raw fruits, vegetables and nuts. Buddha himself practiced austerities under these people from the age of 29 – 35. Says who – Buddhists themselves. The origin of Vegetarianism can be probably traced to the Sankhya classification of Sattwa, Rajas and Tamas. However this is not conclusive. Buddhism also was influenced by Sankhya. Even Dr. Ambedkar acknowledges the prominance of Sankhya and its influence on Buddhism in his baseless and fictional book of ‘Buddha and his Dharma’.
So much so for the scriptures , even if the scriptures didn’t contain such horrific verses agains humanity, this wouldn’t change the current (and past) reality – that which dalits had to suffer for so long and continue to suffer.
In what way are Brahmins responsible for the horrific conditions of Dalits. Brahmins were never in power since many many centuries. I am not mentioning that there were no atrocities commited by the so called upper castes on lower castes and Brahmins were flawless. But Brahmins being landless people never had much clout. Also in the current situation that you are talking about where do the Brahmins have power in India. In fact they are discriminated for perceived wrongs. They have been denied entry to educational and goverment institutions in this process of reverse discrimination. A dalit in india has all the privileges. Of course in villages where they are in dire poverty they cannot even exercise them. But who is responsible for this poverty? People who have looted India since ages.
And who owns land and resources in India – it is the so called OBCs. Even the oppurtunistic BSP who supposedly represent dalits acknowledged this fact. So get your facts straight before talking about oppression and atrocities. Even in the atrocities on Dalits in the recent Khailranji, Jajjhar etc it was the OBCs who were involved. Brahmins were never in the picture but still the colonial hangoverof blame it on the brahmin continues. The only reason Brahmins came to the forefront and could advance themselves was due to the fact that they easily adapted to the english education in 1800’s. The british used them as clerks. Hence you found Brahmins being more educated. Later from the mid of the 18th century it was the Brahmins who led the struggle for the freedom from the imperial rule. These people who fought for freedom could not stand the exploitation of the British and the looting of the resources and the oppression of the British rule. Dr. Ambedkar for example always connived with the British and never fought for the freedom of the country.
I am not a spokesperson of all the brahmins and like every other castes they have had bad practices and been exclusivists and practiced untouchability and restricted dalits from temple entry. These wrongs have been rectified through several reform movements by raja ram mohan roy, Vidyasagar and many others. Our modern constitution framed by constituent assembly chaired by Dr Ambedkar had many members from the Brahmin community. Dr Ambedkar himself has acknowledged this in his speech in parliament. And this constitution gives the freedom of right to religion. A person like you with fascist inclinations might not believe in these values but they are enshrined in the constitution nevertheless.
There may be few Brahmins who are modern in thinking, but most still remain oppressive and suffer from extraordinary superiority complex.
Again what is your proof on this. How few? Have you done any study? Brahmins can be seen in most progressive endeavors in India and abroad. They have been in the forefront of social reform, scientific thought and arts in India. Want proof? Every community feels proud of its achievements so does brahmins. Even different families have this feeling. What’s your problem with this. And the only reaction you can muster against the Brahmins is hurl baseless abuses on them.
I would rather support the preservation of Brahminic culture which is dying in this modern age (modernization and rationality is against brahminicism), as most brahmins are moving west.As it is they are so few in numbers , so it hardly matters what Brahmins alone practice.
If it hardly matters why are you so bothered about Brahmins and abusing them. In fact Brahmins have adapted to Modernity and Rationalization much more than any other community. Again you make unsubstantial and baseless arguments. The greatest of western philosophers from Immanuel Kant, Neitsche and Schopanhuer have been influenced by the reason in the Brahminical scriptures. What makes you think Westernization is spoiling Hindu culture. Maybe you are not aware of the cultural influence of Hindus in the west through Yoga and Vedanta.
This hinduism is a result of Brahminism and so , to eradicate caste system (Hinduism) we have no choice but to strike at its heart – brahminism.
You know nothing of Hinduism or Brahminism other than writings of some subaltern writers and you are in no firm position to strike at Hinduism least of all at its heart. Only thing you can indulge is in false propoganda. Hinduism is not just Brahminism it is a synthesis and conglomoerate of many different belief systems. Ever heard of Bhakti Movement in Hinduism. This in fact is the prevalent Hindu belief system in India and this had mostly non-brahmins contributing and continuing the tradition. Looks like you are poorly read on the Hindu society, culture and beliefs. And Hindus are 82 % of India’s population and Brahmins among them are 4%. So how confident are you when you are singing the death song of Hinduism. It looks like you have no first hand experience of India or its society. Do you know how prevalent Hinduism is in India? And this Hinduism is not the caste system you are talking about but the essential belief system of Hindus. Obviously as you yourself admitted you don’t have much knowledge in these areas and just content in referring to information from blogs such as these and subaltern writings of fringe elements. As someone mentioned in his critic to hindu bashers like Kancha Ilaiah – Anger is no substitute for substance. This applies to you as well.
happyhindu said
Fallenmonk, I believe this was meant for me:
|| I came across a post by a gentleman claiming to be a shudra and yet supporting the Hindu structure.This is not surprising as he is a Hindu at the end of the day.He is happy being in the bottom of the hindu social ladder and , perhaps , is unaware that the reverred manusmriti is harshest on him and his brethren.Such sudras are even more dangerous than the brahmins themselves.They are bootlickers of the “upper” caste hindus and are happy being in the position they are. It is better to ignore such boot-lickers. ||
1) What is wrong in being a shudra?
Please read the Rudra laghunyasam. Who is God and who are you? Padayor Vishnu stishtathu (Vishnu lies in the feet) — meaning complete surrender at Mahavishnu’s feet is the way to the light (hari) and it is only after this surrender that one can realize Prajnane Brahma stishtathu (growth of the mind comes from cognitive acuity). It is metaphorical and wud mean that a seeker of mental growth / asamprajnata samadhi wud first need to surrender himself / herself at the source of all light and then go about the way to seek it; for God does not bestow this acuity to a man who still holds on to his ego. Yes, I am happy in my mental surrender to Mahavishnu. Am happier in the sense of Chidananda roopa Shivoham Shivoham (of identifying with the bliss of the self / chitta / consciousness for it is only after this identification that I get to travel to Hari). The intelligent ego is the one that helps one give up the unintelligent ego.
Walking the talk is more important than the mouth that talks. In the past, please note that the doers who defended their faith and gave up their lives (nayaks) were self-declared shudras (or were happy being that since ancient times). They did not consider themselves inferior in anyway to the brahmans, in fact those that were mired with their unintelligent ego considered themselves superior to the preachers / shramans.
2) Are people such as me ‘bootlickers’?
I might just want to throw this back at you and accuse you of being a bootlicker of evangelist organizations that pay you for doing what you do.
Can I bring myself to respect a man just because he is a ‘brahman’ even if he were not to behave like one and wear his vanity on his sleeve — someone who is still hung on his unintelligent ego despite being a so-called brahman? Does that make him a ‘brahman’ at all in the first place and would I be willing to sit with somone like that to seek divinity? Wud all those rituals have any meaning then? Certainly not. It wud be like asking me to respect a man just because he is rich or just because he discovered the atom bomb and therefore decided to be vain. Sorry mate, I would rather respect any man for what he is as a person rather than his birth or abilities.
3) Are hindu scriptures harsh on me?
I agree some are. Perhaps some texts were interpolated with harsh injectors because those that got ‘classified’ as shudras were indeed initially non-vedic people, those that indulged in philosophies rather than rituals, with many given to seeking material wealth and therefore making discoveries along that path rather than traveling along the ascetic / shraman path (resulting in the absence of brahmans amongst them). There are only 2 forms of Lakshmi after all – artha or moksha. The non-vedic people walked the former path, the vedic people took to the later path. Later day integration of idealogies / philosophies and amalgamation of the peoples were and are inevitable. But wud scriptures being harsh or not matter in this day and age? Can such things be followed now? So, how does bad literature matter now? I would rather use viveka (sense of discrimination) to read and decide for myself what I want to follow.
fallen monk said
Firstly , where did my post, that I wrote as a reply to this shankara , go?
Now coming back to this happy hindu , this scripture that you quoted is a , comparatively , very recent development , and would you yourself consider it as more authentic than the vedas , or at least the upanishads?
From your posts , it is apparent that you are a vaishnavite, unlike a shaivite or a tantric.Anyway , I would ignore all your justification of being a “sudra” , because I am talking in accordance with rationality and it would be certainly foolish on my side to convince someone who believes that humans evolved from this “mahavishnu” , rationally.Keep aside all your metaphors that you and your hindu brothers – brahmins – keep inventing to fool the masses , and answer my simple question , why your brahmin brother was showing his hypocrisy by saying that caste by birth is not mentioned in your so-called holy scriptures , whereas you , here , are justifying being a sudra by birth?This hinduism is actually not a religion , in fact.As I already said all non-brahmin hindus are unware of their own scriptures and brahmins like shankara fool people with various metaphors and non-sense written in his scriptures.
Leave aside what is written in the scriptures about caste system , consider what is a reality today , the discrimination and oppression.You yourself claim to be a sudra very proudly , so you know that these divisions are by birth only , regardless of the scriptures.So long as such practices are enjoyed by the hindus , the struggle by dalits and tribals will go on and is inevitable.
Regarding your justification of being a sudra , as you proved that is indeed very honorable to be a sudra , i.e emerging from mahavishnu’s feet , tell me why do the brahmins not consider themselves to have evolved from the feet?Isn’t it really a nice thing to be a product of this vishnu’s dirty feet?You all are hypocrites , especially you shudras.Even now , I am quite sure that you are not a sudra but a brahmin in disguise of sudra.It is not difficult to identify who’s brahmin.You talk like a brahmin.
Even if you are indeed a sudra , it is better you remain so and surrender all your mentality , rationality , ethics , intelligence (if any) to this mahavishnu , and continue being a slave of the brahmins.
dalitnation said
Fallen Monk – Firstly , where did my post, that I wrote as a reply to this shankara , go?
In this website most of the post are approved if it falls within decent limits and language. And I am sure all your posts have fallen in those limits and are approved. Maybe you have lost those posts in some break out sessions during postings.
happyindianhindu said
You got me totally wrong fallenmonk.
|| Now coming back to this happy hindu , this scripture that you quoted is a , comparatively , very recent development , and would you yourself consider it as more authentic than the vedas , or at least the upanishads? ||
Ans: Rudra laghunyasam is not a recent text. It is from the Krishna Yajurved. Please read it.
|| From your posts , it is apparent that you are a vaishnavite, unlike a shaivite or a tantric.Anyway , I would ignore all your justification of being a “sudra” , because I am talking in accordance with rationality and it would be certainly foolish on my side to convince someone who believes that humans evolved from this “mahavishnu||
There is nothing called Vaishnavite or Shaivite. Hari cannot exist without Hara and Hara without Hari. Shiva is the mind, Vishnu the soul. To travel to the soul, one needs to know his / her mind as a medium that serves in the understanding of the chitta / consciousness.
|| ..why your brahmin brother was showing his hypocrisy by saying that caste by birth is not mentioned in your so-called holy scriptures , whereas you , here , are justifying being a sudra by birth? ||
Ans: I never justified anything by birth neither do the sanatana scriptures. Please let me know what did I say that led you to think that way.
||…all non-brahmin hindus are unware of their own scriptures and brahmins like shankara fool people with various metaphors and non-sense written in his scriptures.||
Ans: As a social classification, I am a non-brahmin hindu and I decided to explore the scriptures to decide whether I wanted to be a hindu or not. And before I did this, I tried being a christian, then a muslim, then a buddhist. And before all of that, I was raised by an atheist father and a hindu mother; and therefore the atmosphere I was raised in was predominantly atheist. Do not say non-brahmin hindus are unaware of their scriptures. And Shankara does not need to “fool” people, neither do I. We do not gain in anyway from it.
|| You yourself claim to be a sudra very proudly , so you know that these divisions are by birth only , regardless of the scriptures||
Ans: I did not claim to be proud. To me the definition of a shudra wud be the descendents of skudra – Turvasu – as Yavanas / non-vedic people. They were designated non-vedic due to idealogical differences and got integrated into the vedic system later (mahabharat times supposedly). The scriptural definition of a shudra is “one in pain” — I am not in pain of any sort. True, the divisions were made fixed by birth due to interpolated texts or to ensure continuity of professions.
To judge the past based on present day modern sensibilities would be foolish. In the past it might have not been a bad thing to be a Shudra afterall; or they might have most certianly not wanted to be that. All the inter-caste problems that we have on our hands today is thanks to the pre-colonial missionaries.
Yet, I do not say oppression did not exist. Yes it may have existed. But today technology has taken over. It is foolish to talk about caste in this present day and age.
||…justification of being a sudra , as you proved that is indeed very honorable to be a sudra , i.e emerging from mahavishnu’s feet , tell me why do the brahmins not consider themselves to have evolved from the feet?Isn’t it really a nice thing to be a product of this vishnu’s dirty feet?||
I did not say emerging from the feet of mahavishnu, I said surrendering.
Yes, brahmanas too had to surrender themselves at the feet of divinity or they cud not hope to unwind the kundalini or expand their consciousness thru the sushumna nadi. It just shows that those that did in the past were accorded the spiritual status or social position of a brahman.
Idols of Narayana have Him with a finger pointing at his feet. He does not discriminate between a brahmin or a shudra surrendering at His feet.
|| Even now , I am quite sure that you are not a sudra but a brahmin in disguise of sudra.It is not difficult to identify who’s brahmin.You talk like a brahmin.
Even if you are indeed a sudra , it is better you remain so and surrender all your mentality , rationality , ethics , intelligence (if any) to this mahavishnu , and continue being a slave of the brahmins.||
Ans: Why shd I pretend to be a brahmin in the guise of a shudra or vice-versa. This is laughable. But since you force me to come out with my so-called social classification — am a naidu.
Shankara said
@ Fallen Monk – all non-brahmin hindus are unware of their own scriptures and brahmins like shankara fool people with various metaphors and non-sense written in his scriptures.
Again you are making generalized and baseless statements to cover your ignorance on Hinduism. Hinduism has multitudes of scriptures and reform movements within it. Unlike the Abrahamic religions it does not have a single cannon. Your claim that everything should trace back to the Vedas and that every Hindu holds Vedas as supereme is also not accurate. There are several Hindu denominations like the veera shaivas (followers of the great reformer Basavanna) do not hold vedas as sacred and they are all Hindus. So before you impose your own rules on Hinduism try to understand the religion. That is the reason it is quite obvious that you have no understanding of Hindu religion other than what is written by subaltern writers. Hindus respect different view points and accept that there are many paths to one divine.
Your claim that Hinduism is not a religion is idiotic? What is your definition of religion? Can you please tell us what makes up a religion and then we can talk. Open any encylopedia of religion (written by the left, right, center, marxists, islamists, christian, imperial, secular ..) and you will find a big section on the Hindu religion. Just because you don’t consider Hinduism as a religion does not make it so. You are free to live in your delusions but don’t expect everyone to buy your nonsense. For example if I don’t consider Einstien as a scientist much less a great scientist the fact will not change that he is one. All you show is a hatred for Hindus and also your abysmal ignorance of Hindu customs and way of life. You are free to hate anyone but don’t expect everyone to believe and comply with your idiocy.
You simply shout aloud that all other castes consider themselves as slaves of Brahmins. In every post you show how idiotic you are and how little knowledge you have of Hindus and Hinduism. You haven’t been able to provide one proper response to any of my posts. And you are simply repeating the same thing again and again – Hindu and Brahmin bashing without any rhyme or reason.
For your information we have the greatest of Hindu leaders who were not Brahmins and they have been revered by all the castes. Not just many older sages but most of the Modern and popular hindu leaders like Swami Vivekananda, Aurobindo Ghosh, Paramahamsa Yogananda, Narayan Guru, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Amritanandamayi, Baba Ramdev and many many others are from non brahmin communities. But they are highly revered by most Hindus. All these people are considered by Hindus and even other religious and secular people as the leaders of the Hindu community. Infact Hindus do not think about caste when they talk about their leaders and saints and they look for the essence of their teaching. I am just posting their caste because you are so fixated about it and to prove to you that Hindu leaders and teachings are not just about Brahmins. Brahmins of course have played a great role in Hindu rennaisance but they are not the only Hindu community. You can just go on and on about your tirade on Brahmins and Hindus and your baseless conspiracy theories but they hold no weight.
Even the main political leaders of the right wing Hindu party like BJP are dominated by non-Brahmins. Advani, Narendra Modi, Rajnath Singh, Uma Bharathi and many many others are not from the brahmin community. And they are considered as Hindu leaders. As I mentioned earlier Castes are basically communities which maintained an occupational identity. The Hindu religion is much bigger than any caste or community and is universal. They are also less parochial than the abrahamic religions.
Kapu said
Hatred will never be killed by hatred. Learn to respect everyone and every religion. Each has its own truth. I am just amazed how much of discussion has happened because of this post on Aishwarya Rai.
fallen monk said
@Happyhindu
So ,you are again inventing new metaphors to justify your point?There is indeed a big difference between vaishnava and the shaivite cults.In fact , there have been many conflicts between the two in the Indian history.Although vaishnavas were usually tolerant towards others , they would turn hostile towards the shaivites , such was the kind of differences between the two.Whereas vishnu has many incarnations like krishna , ram , indra etc , shiva is usually symbolized as a “lingam” (for a very funny reason).In the ling purana , vishnu is beheaded by virabhadra and his head is then blown by wind into fire.In the vaishnava , hari vamsa , vishnu compels shiva to fly after taking him by throat and nearly strangulating.There are many references like these.You can yourself imagine the differences in opinion between the vaishnavas and shaivites.The metaphors that you gave of shiva as mind (whose?) and vishnu as soul (whose?) may be some later interpolations due to influences from some non-vedic or tribal traditions.
You only prove that hindus are hypocrites.You wrote a long explanation of how being a sudra is not bad , but instead honorable.At least , you should’ve specified what kind of sudra you were talking about.Still , it was clear that you are referring to sudra by birth , as yourself in mind , while writing that long post.
I am amazed that you rejected atheism , monoism etc for these comical beliefs like the creation of humans from purusha etc.
A typical hindu , attributing the sins of his ancestors and himself to the britishers and moghuls .
Then why were you justifying the caste system , by “procing” that being a sudra is not wrong.
Earlier you said that vishnu is soul.Now who is this mahavishnu?Why (and how) do you surrender yourself to him?Don’t these things
seems like funny to you?
No one cares if some narayan doesn’t discriminate between sudra and brahmin.The thing that is important is that hindus are casteists and they do discriminate.
It doesn’t really matter to me whatever you are , whether “naidu” , “bunt” , “tribal” , “pakistani” or whatever.The truth is that you are a sudra due to your mentality.
Clement said
Hey Dalitnation your views on Brahmins are so revealing. Can you please do some study if you have not already done that on ‘Brahmins being the Cause of Global Warming’. I am darn sure these brahmins would have played a great part in Global warming.
Is there any evidence of Brahmins being responsible for extinction of the dinosauros. Again I am darn sure there would be some link. Brahmins would have found the Dinasourous a big threat as Dalit-Bahujans drank dinosouras milk. Evil Brahmins killed the dinosaourus thereby depriving Dalits of their main source of food. I am sure there will be evidence available to prove this. Dalit Nation must please check this and let us know. If you consult V.T. Rajashekar or Kancha Ilaiah they surely would have some scholarly treatise written on this. Please note Jurrasic Park movie was directed by the zionist jew Steven Speilberg. The way Speilberg demonized Dinosaurous is very fishy indeed. The peaceful Dinosaurous which used to give milk to Dalit Bahujans was killed and Brahmins made the cow into a god.
Am i sounding like Dalit Nation and Dalit Voice. Maybe I should try finding a job with them. Or Should I start work as an intern under Professor Kancha Ilaiah. I have just finished college and studied journalism. I humbly request your scholarly opinion.
fallen monk said
@ Shankara
|| Hinduism has multitudes of scriptures and reform movements within it. ||
If Hinduism had been faulty , for which reforms were needed , and still has reform movements , then it only proves that hinduism could still be erroneous and faulty and need reforms.What is the use of following it when you are aware that “Hinduism” has required lots of reformations to survive?What is the certainity that all the faults of ‘hinduism’ have been improved?
||So before you impose your own rules on Hinduism try to understand the religion.||
I have read quite a lot of hindu scriptures and I think I have have more idea about Hinduism than you have.
|| Your claim that Hinduism is not a religion is idiotic? What is your definition of religion? Can you please tell us what makes up a religion and then we can talk. ||
A religion is a set of homogeneous beliefs based on some basic idea or principle , to understand the mysterious nature and the reason for creation of life etc. Please notice the word homogeneous.A religion is different from another when their “basis” (or foundational beliefs) are different.A religion may have different sects and subsects , but the basis remains the same.How does hinduism fit to this definition?I am sure you yourself know the origin of the terms “hindu” and “hinduism”.”Hindu” is more like a geographical term , and the term hinduism is used as a term to denote the combined set of beliefs existing in India , beside the well founded religions like christianity , islam , Buddhism , Jainism and sikhism.I already mentioned the various contradictory and conflicting beliefs under the term “Hinduism”.The basis of advaita vedanta (non-dualism), which doesn’t even acknowledge a creator , is completely different from the “trimurti” concept of the vedas.Shaivites consider shiva as their highest god whereas vaishnavites consider vishnu the same.Bhakti path has its own gods based on epics and mythology , like ram ,hanuman etc.Moreover , the differences not only exist in beliefs but also in origin and race(caste-system).”Hinduism” is only forcibly chosen as a term to denote one single religion , even though it violates the meaning of the term “religion”.
|| All you show is a hatred for Hindus and also your abysmal ignorance of Hindu customs and way of life. ||
I have many other things to do in life instead of hating one community just for fun or as a hobby.It is just that I hate people who practice discrimination on the basis of hypocritical caste system.It is not my mistake that all these people happen to belong to “hinduism”.Hindus have ill-treated innocent people for ages and still continue to do so , they are the ones who initiated this hatred , and now you ask why we hate hindus?We are only retaliating in self defence , to live with equality and dignity.If the vedics had been peaceful , rational and moral people , no one would have hated them now , even if they fooled people on the basis of religion.
|| You haven’t been able to provide one proper response to any of my posts. ||
I had given reply to each statement of yours in a very long post but , somehow , my post has vanished , even though I saw it yesterday.I am in no position to reply to your false knowledge once again.
|| Amritanandamayi, Baba Ramdev and many many others are from non brahmin communities. ||
Baba ramdev is teaching yoga regardless of any religion , including hinduism.I don’t know about the other.Perhaps , she is only fooling people in the name of religion.
|| Even the main political leaders of the right wing Hindu party like BJP are dominated by non-Brahmins. Advani, Narendra Modi, Rajnath Singh, Uma Bharathi and many many others are not from the brahmin community. ||
All hindus are ignorant and hypocrites , whether brahmin or otherwise.The brahmins , however , are the initiators of this hypocrisy called Hinduism.
If I get time , I will reply to your earlier post once again.
fallen monk said
My reply to Happy hindu has also vanished (or deleted).
What is the reason , Mr. Dalitnation?
fallen monk said
I am sure the reason why my posts are being deleted by the blogger is due to my aggression against the shudras also.Most shudras are hindus , after all.They also practice casteism.
fallen monk said
@ Clement and others like him.
Please don’t mock yourself by acting immaturely.There is a serious discussion going on here.
happyindianhindu said
fallenmonk,
||There is indeed a big difference between vaishnava and the shaivite cults.In fact , there have been many conflicts between the two in the Indian history.Although vaishnavas were usually tolerant towards others , they would turn hostile towards the shaivites , such was the kind of differences between the two.Whereas vishnu has many incarnations like krishna , ram , indra etc , shiva is usually symbolized as a “lingam” (for a very funny reason).In the ling purana , vishnu is beheaded by virabhadra and his head is then blown by wind into fire.In the vaishnava , hari vamsa , vishnu compels shiva to fly after taking him by throat and nearly strangulating.There are many references like these.You can yourself imagine the differences in opinion between the vaishnavas and shaivites.||
Ans: Time and again it has been the work of westerners with vested interests to point out that Shaivism and Vaishnavism are diffrent and opposing schools. That Shaivism is native to Indians / Dravidians and Vaishnavism came from outside. Sorry mate, hindus do not buy that. We have to think in terms of very early tribals of which some gave importance to the lingam (the kundala in the mooladhara is has its perceived shape as that of the lingam, earliest references to the lingam are not of the male organ but of this); while others gave importance to the yoni (as mother earth, mother fertility, etc – the man was only considered an intervening medium in causing birth, the woman was everything). So you have a patrilineal culture and a matrilinial culture. Some wrote and classified each other as each deemed right from his / her own point of view. Some talked about pouring lead into the ears of the enemy. Some praised them. In short, they fought and they made love; and they did this over and over again; like all couples do. Centuries later, they had integrated into a family. And even produced children branching off as buddhism, sikhism, etc.
Then some westereners with vested interests came along and found them living in peace. And decided to highlight only those points from their early texts that had earlier been the causes of rift between them; while ignoring the the other side / the spiritual literature generated by them. To the hindus they were plays of creation and destruction. To the westerners they could be twisted and turned to sow seeds of discord. Now you too are doing the same.
|| You only prove that hindus are hypocrites.You wrote a long explanation of how being a sudra is not bad , but instead honorable.At least , you should’ve specified what kind of sudra you were talking about.Still , it was clear that you are referring to sudra by birth , as yourself in mind , while writing that long post.||
Ans: Please tell me in what way do you think I was referring to shudra by birth. I never said anything is honorable. Anyone who has purvajanma karma rinam (debts from the past) is reborn. How can anyone’s birth be honourable? We are born from desire, live in desire and die in desire. The idea is to find ways to get rid of the sanchita karma and never be born again.
|| I am amazed that you rejected atheism , monoism etc for these comical beliefs like the creation of humans from purusha etc.||
Ans: Did i ever say I believe in the creation of humans from purusha? Do you understand Puru-Isha at all? Did I say I rejected atheism and monoism? Please do not put words of your own into my mouth.
|| A typical hindu , attributing the sins of his ancestors and himself to the britishers and moghuls||.
Ans: What do you mean by Sin? The bible has a very half-baked explanation of it. What is Karma? Who are ‘ancestors’ ? Why are you re-born? Request you to keep the bible aside and turn the pages of the Brahma sutra instead.
|| Then why were you justifying the caste system , by “procing” that being a sudra is not wrong.||
Did I justify the caste system. None of them — being a brahman, kshatriya, vaishya, shudra — as classes that have existed and will exist are not wrong. Only the people that constituted those classes have always been fluid.
|| Earlier you said that vishnu is soul.Now who is this mahavishnu?Why (and how) do you surrender yourself to him?Don’t these things
seems like funny to you? ||
Ans: Please read a bit on the vishishtadvaita school. To surrender to Him means to commit oneself to the pursuit of knowing the self without ego. No it does not seem funny to me.
|| No one cares if some narayan doesn’t discriminate between sudra and brahmin.The thing that is important is that hindus are casteists and they do discriminate.||
If so, then why are you discriminating?
|| It doesn’t really matter to me whatever you are , whether “naidu” , “bunt” , “tribal” , “pakistani” or whatever.The truth is that you are a sudra due to your mentality.||
Is that all you have to hurl back? Between atmakhyati and anyatakhyati who are you afterall?
happyindianhindu said
Fallenmonk,
|| The basis of advaita vedanta (non-dualism), which doesn’t even acknowledge a creator , is completely different from the “trimurti” concept of the vedas.Shaivites consider shiva as their highest god whereas vaishnavites consider vishnu the same.Bhakti path has its own gods based on epics and mythology , like ram ,hanuman etc.Moreover , the differences not only exist in beliefs but also in origin and race(caste-system).”Hinduism” is only forcibly chosen as a term to denote one single religion , even though it violates the meaning of the term “religion”.||
You wrote this to Shankara. But am tempted to ask you to explain your concept of a creator. Surely you cannot expect to find that ‘connect’ with something outside of you if you do not connect with the spirit within you first.
If you are a Xtian, perhaps i shd remind you: ‘In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God’ (Genesis 5:1). So, who is God according to you?
If you are a Buddhist, perhaps i shd also remind you that Buddha during His lifetime never said there is God or there is no God. He spoke in parabels and expected that each human must discover that on their own.
For those who feel the antaryami, there is indeed no religion. But if one had to define religion in your terms, then yes hindusim is a religion. Please do not attempt to divide Shaivism, Vaishnavism, bhakti path, etc without understanding them first.
Shankara said
@ Fallen Monk
Again you are at it again. Hurling baseless accusations on Hinduism.
If Hinduism had been faulty , for which reforms were needed , and still has reform movements , then it only proves that hinduism could still be erroneous and faulty
TO give you a brief on the Hindu religion. There are two types of scriptures in Hinduism Shruthi and Smrithi. Shruthis talk of the universal truths and absolutes. Smrithi is more related to the social rules of conduct and other rituals. To make it more clear, Shrutis are similar to the categorical imperetive as defined by Kant and smrithis are like the hypothtical imperetive.Even within Vedas there are elements of Shruthi and Smrithi within the context of a single mandala. Any learned Hindu can tell you that.
Why does Religion needs reform? Because times change and social values change. You cannot hold on to the value system held thousands of years ago. Hinduism hence provides a context based interpretation of religion and hence Hinduism is also called ’sanathana dharma’. The rig veda clearly provides the foundation for this from these statements ‘Ekam Sat Vipraha Bahuda Vadanti’ – Truth is one but wise men talk about or approach it through many ways and also in another statement it mentions about absorbing noble thoughts from all sides.
Your definition of religion is exactly matching the semetic religious doctrines and hence I will bring them here.Semitic religions have their rules cannonized forever. The quran has rules of 7th century arabia cannonized forever and according to islam it should apply to all times and places past, present and future. Same with the Bible. However the hindu traditions beleives in a perrineal individual access to truth and believes in a number of incarnations. Hence Hindu religion is highly inclusive and has even embraced highly restrictive religions like christianity and islam.
The Bhakti and Sufi movements are a case to ponder on. Just look at the movement of Shiridi Sai Baba and his millions of Hindu adherents. Hindus become no less Hindus by revering a muslim saint and also the Hindu ethos remain intact.
Now if you don’t think that these are not what Hindus beleive then I am sorry to say you have no knowledge of Hinduism and there is nothing much anyone can tell you more. You can wallow in your own views and opinions. When you critique a religion or a society it is incumbent on you to understand its paradigms, philosophical canon and the sociology. It is clear that you know nothing of these when it comes to Hinduism except parrot some rigid beliefs you hold yourself on this great reiligion. It is also evident that your reading of Hindu religions is confined to only subaltern interpretations of this religion.
A religion is a set of homogeneous beliefs based on some basic idea or principle , to understand the mysterious nature and the reason for creation of life etc. Please notice the word homogeneous.
Homogeneous beliefs are a semitic and monotheistic idea perpetuated by Abrahamic religions. Even these religions are not homogenous -Sunnis, Shias, Ahmediyas, Bahais etc in Islam and Catholic and Protestent and mormon and many many others in christianity. And now all of these denominations consider themselves christians and muslims. In Buddhism we have Mahayana, Theravada, Zen (In Zen or Dhyana they even say if you meet the buddha on the road kill him i.e. reverence to Buddha or his cannon is not required) and many others. Basically religion is a body of knowledge and a canon which even contains diverse beliefs which fit into a certain paradigm. Those scholars (and they are the majority) who believe in this definition of religion consider Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Jainism, Buddhism and sikhism as the principal religions ofthe world and among these Islam, Christianity and Judaism fall under the semitic abrahamic paradigm evolved from the core jewish belief system and Jainism, Buddhism and Sikhism evolved from the Hindu belief system. That Hindu is a geographical term is incidental and Hindus themselves call their religion by many names Sanatana Dharama or eternal religion is one of them. There are religions like Buddhism and christianity named after their founders. So what about it. That other races cannot come within the ambit of Hinduism is a myth perpetrated in the 18th century by the British. As you can see there are many converts in the west to the Hindu way of living and thought.
Hindus have ill-treated innocent people for ages and still continue to do so , they are the ones who initiated this hatred , and now you ask why we hate hindus?
These are baseless generalizations and this has been discussed in detail in other posts. The records of religions like Christianity and Islam on Human Rights abuse as compared to Hinduism is much more because of the inherent rigid Us versus them in these religions. Hinduism with no central organization is ill equipped to do such a sustained ill treatment. Even today India as compared to say Pakistan (not to mention afghanisthan) or say the christian eastern europe is much less in Human rights abuse. Hinduism has no part to play in this. The caste system in India exists as a social stratification cutting across all religions. The tribal and fuedal wars in say the pashtun region or the african tribal wars have no hindu influence. Non violence is a term which stirred the majority of the Hindus to fight the oppression of colonial rule. What matters is your adherence to Humane value systems. All the Hindu movements adhere to these humane value systems. If some of them don’t you won’t have trouble in getting the majority of Hindus to denounce them. Hindus in general have never had such a problem. But again genralizations are wrong and Human beings all over the world have baser instincts. So whether you are Hindu, Christian, Buddhist or an atheist every of these groups had their share of blood in their hands. There is also a solutuon in the Hindu, Jain and Buddhist spiritual tradition for these social evils in the Individual attainmnt of salvation and peace as opposed to the collective salvation deal of abrahamic religions which never work.
Baba ramdev is teaching yoga regardless of any religion , including hinduism.I don’t know about the other.Perhaps , she is only fooling people in the name of religion.
You don’t know much about Baba Ramdev or the other Hindu movements but you just want to hazard a guess and again show the extent of your hatred on Hindus and on Amritanadamayi. Even in the legal world a victim is innocent until proven guilty but not in your world of preconceived and ill conceived ideas. Sorry again you show your abysmal ignorance. Just for your education there are six systems of Hindu Philosophies called the Shat Darshanas – Sankhya,, Yoga, Vedanta, Mimamsa, Nyaya and Vaisheshika. Open any good book on Hindu philosophy and you will find this. Yoga is a key part in this. So just don’t show more and more of your ignorance by claiming that yoga is not part of Hinduism. Like most universal truths of the Hindu religion -yoga is now being followed, adopted and propogated by many people in the world who want to lead a healthy, wholesome and peaceful life.
All hindus are ignorant and hypocrites , whether brahmin or otherwise.The brahmins , however , are the initiators of this hypocrisy called Hinduism
I don’t think I need to reply to this other than what I have already told – Just shows the extent of your knowledge and generalized hatred on a huge community of 0.8 billion.
Let me just hazard a guess – where are you from – Pakisthan(?)
happyindianhindu said
Kancha,
Where are you?
This website is your mouthpiece afterall.
Just because you are paid to do what you do, I hope you do not refrain from reading this.
Dalination, make sure your Kancha reads this.
Bye.
fallen monk said
Happyhindu,
|| But am tempted to ask you to explain your concept of a creator. ||
Since I am an atheist , you must be already knowing my answer to this.Personally , I believe in Buddhism (especially the zen sect) and Taoism.These two deserve to be called as ‘eastern religions” , as opposed to western ones (including vedicism).A “Creator” , in the english language , is the initiator of life, of everything that “exists”.And I certainly don’t believe in it.The “Brahman” proposed in Advaita vedanta is not a creator , but a substratum of everything.Unlike , the emptiness in Buddhism , “Brahman” has independent existence with no prior cause for it , instead it is a cause for everything else.I find this concept ridiculous.You can read Nagarjuna’s ( a Buddhist Logician of ancient India) Mulamadhyamakarika for the justification of it.
To read some more funnier accounts of the creation of this world , like creation from Brahma’s semen , you can refer to some puranas of ‘Hinduism’.
|| For those who feel the antaryami, there is indeed no religion. ||
These are ornamental words with no meaning.No one has felt any God.All are liars and hypocrites , who claim this.
fallen monk said
Shankara ,
Shruthis talk of the universal truths and absolutes. Smrithi is more related to the social rules of conduct and other rituals.
Smrithi may be concerned with nothing more than social rules and conducts (like Koran , Bible ) , but it certainly has religious origins and I will not hesitate to claim that majority of the Hindus are only concerned about it , rather than shruti , and follow it with complete dedication.
Your explanation about shruti and smriti is still not anything closer to any “justification” of all the discrimination and oppression that the dalits have faced and are facing.And besides , any non-hindu can imagine how that religion would be from which such horrific social rules and conducts have emerged.
However the hindu traditions beleives in a perrineal individual access to truth and believes in a number of incarnations.
Whom does these hindu scriptures entrust the responsibility of modifying with time?Can anybody create rules in Hinduism.If this is so , then ‘Hinduism’ is certainly not a religion , because not only hindus but everyone in the world has the right to select and follow whatever he/she likes.This fundamental right is not exclusive for hindus alone.
Hence Hindu religion is highly inclusive and has even embraced highly restrictive religions like christianity and islam.
These concepts of embracing , disposing , modifying etc are only peculiar to hindus.What do you mean by embracing another religion?Every religion , by virtue of being a “religion” , is different from another.How can one embrace the other?You must admit the fact that “Hindu” is a geographical term and “Hinduism” is not one religion but mixture of different religions.The reason why “Hinduism” can embrace every new happening thing in the world so easily is because it has no strong basis or foundation of its own.If it were based on some principle postulates , hypothesis , laws etc , then it would have never embraced something contradictory to its foundations.
Just look at the movement of Shiridi Sai Baba and his millions of Hindu adherents. Hindus become no less Hindus by revering a muslim saint and also the Hindu ethos remain intact.
Hindus follow whatever they want to – any god , saint , or even religion.Unfortunately , most hindus just love caste system , because of their greed , and will not easily leave it.
Even these religions are not homogenous -Sunnis, Shias, Ahmediyas, Bahais etc in Islam and Catholic and Protestent and mormon and many many others in christianity.
Again you are drifting other religions to justify your own religion.Anyway , even these division or differences between sects of such religion are only surface differences.Their foundation remains the same.Shia and sunni both believe in only one Allah as the Creator and the same prophet.Roman catholics , protestants etc all acknowledge Jesus as their messenger and the son of one and only one God.The differences are only on the surface and not the basis.
In Buddhism we have Mahayana, Theravada, Zen (In Zen or Dhyana they even say if you meet the buddha on the road kill him i.e. reverence to Buddha or his cannon is not required) and many others.
Every sect of Buddhism is based on four noble truths and the eightfold path.The philosophy is the same , even if the methods to achieve may be different.In the “Hinduism” , whereas someone believes that everything is a consequence of “Brahman” , the other may be more comfortable pleasing Ram , Sita , Ravan etc , yet someone else likes doing useless rituals , havans etc.No correlations at all.Only with the contact of Islam and Christianity with Hinduism did hindus really begin describing hinduism as a monotheistic religon by inventing some new metaphors or selecting one particular religion of “Hinduism” , of course being inspired by these abrahamic religions.
Jainism, Buddhism and Sikhism evolved from the Hindu belief system.
Jainism is far older than “Hinduism”.And Buddhism is not based on any vedas , as Buddha Gautama never read them.Only a fool would say that a philosophy like Buddhism is based on the rituals of Hinduism (vedas of those times).While Buddha was on his way to find the end of suffering he had trained with two Jain monks – Alara Kalama
and Udakka ramaputta.Later , he separated from them also and began on his own path.In fact , I would say that most of the present-day Hinduism is a product of Buddhism and Jainism.The concept of Karma , reincarnation , Advaita Vedanta , vegetarianism etc were all a result of competetion of Brahmanism with Buddhism and Jainism.Your own shankara has also criticized and debunked Buddha intensively in his various texts.How can these religions be called as the consequence of “Hindu” (Brahminic) doctrine.
In fact , I would say that “Hinduism” began with the Indian Independence , with the first ever definitions of “Hinduism” and “Hindu” documented in the constitution.
The records of religions like Christianity and Islam on Human Rights abuse as compared to Hinduism is much more because of the inherent rigid Us versus them in these religions.
At least these religions have unity among its own followers , or at least unity and brotherhood among its followers is gauranteed by the scriptures , which is an attribute of all religions , unlike hinduism (if it can be called one) , where the scriptures (whether smriti or shruti) themselves appreciate the division and oppression of people.
The caste system in India exists as a social stratification cutting across all religions.
Would all the hindus agree to call me a “Brahmin” if I agree to read the vedas (although I would select death if it was my only other option rather than this)?Here lies the true hypocrisy of the hindus.
Just for your education there are six systems of Hindu Philosophies called the Shat Darshanas – Sankhya,, Yoga, Vedanta, Mimamsa, Nyaya and Vaisheshika.
Just for your education these schools do not come under the term “Hindu philosophies” so much as it comes under “Indian philosophies”.
Anything that is not in accordance with the vedas or goes against them is not “Hindu” , as is Brahmins themselves consider vedas as the most authoritative.
Shankara said
Your explanation about shruti and smriti is still not anything closer to any “justification” of all the discrimination and oppression that the dalits have faced and are facing.
As I have already mentioned the caste system and oppression from the upper caste to the lower caste had nothing to do with Vedas or latter hindu scriptures and was an unfortunate social development in a feudal soceity. Just to provide a perspective for an objective socilogical perspective this kind of exploitation existed and is still existing in most feudal soceities and we find that in India as well in many other countries especially in the
developing and the under developed world. I am by no means condoning the caste system or the oppression and violence against anyone. I have lived in a village in India for the first few years of my life and observed the
operation of the oppression of a poor community by a powerful landed and rich community. From a child’s unbiased and non political view I could clearly see this as a class divide and there were no religious or caste elements involved in any of these things. I have studied in traditional Hindu schools and also in the best of secular universties. In none of these including the traditional Hindu gurukul there was any element of hatred
taught against any community or religion. So when you appropriate a characterstic or behaviour against someone and a large group of people whom I have interacted closely you should have sufficient proof and evidence. It
is quite clear to me that your fixated and constant hatred towards a community is probably a result of identifying yourself to a subaltern cause whose prime motive and aim is to demonize hinduism without much reason. For
a professed rationalist, Buddhist / taoist I find your angered demenour and victim conciousness amusing.
Whom does these hindu scriptures entrust the responsibility of modifying with time?Can anybody create rules in Hinduism.If this is so , then ‘Hinduism’ is certainly not a religion , because not only hindus but
everyone in the world has the right to select and follow whatever he/she likes.This fundamental right is not exclusive for hindus alone”
Those rules which basically align with the categorical statements of the shruthis are valid rules according to some of the Brahmana tradition but this has been debunked and disqualified over the ages using the shrutis themselves. And most other traditions both within and outside the brahmin tradition have formed their rules based upon the teachings of the rishis and liberated people. The hindu tradition has evidenced a tradition of saints, avatars and teachers who provide the rules / practices based on their experience of cosmic spiritual conciousness. Now you can disbeleive these experiences but again you would need to understand that the same tradition is present in all the Hindu sects in different guises. That is one reason all these traditions fall under one single category. We (Hindus) call it Sanatana Dharma or Hinduism. Since the word Hindu is so allergic to you, you can claim this as whatever you like. The path of Yoga (this is essentially Hindu – I will come to that later in another post) has provided a technology and description of acheiving this state of cosmic conciousness, Moksha, Nirvana etc.
Again who sets the basic rules in other religions. It is set by a set of prophets (Rishis)like Buddha in the case of Buddhism, Muhammad in Islam and Jesus (or rather paul, mathew, mark, luke and john) in case of christianity.
But in case of Hinduism the rigidity to accept and identify solely one set of saints or pophets is absent. This is evident even in the most earlier times when there was a plethora of rishis who contributed to the ever
growing Hindu cannon of thought. Hence it is highly inclusive and less restrictive.
Again you are drifting other religions to justify your own religion.Anyway , even these division or differences between sects of such religion are only surface differences.Their foundation remains the same.Shia
and sunni both believe in only one Allah as the Creator and the same prophet
Again these are your own subjective opinions. Ask a sunni whether a Bhai is a muslim or not. He will surely say he / she isn’t. It is not just a surface difference according to them.
Every sect of Buddhism is based on four noble truths and the eightfold path.
Again you are wrong. The zen sect of rinzai and the instant enlightenment schools have rejected the noble eightfold path as meaningless. Some schools of Zen provides for a present moment, context based non canonical path towards enlightenment. But they are buddhism nevertheless. Even some modern versions of Buddhism have broken away from the original (meaning the teachings in the tripitaka) meanings of karma, sunyata etc. Bhikku Buddadasa (Also called the communist Bhikku) of thailand interpreted buddhism through the lens of Marxism, Ambedkar interpreted Buddhism through the lens of the pragmatic philosophy of his mentor the philosopher John Dewey and ‘his Buddha and his Dharma’ finds no acceptance among majority of the buddhist circles other than a sympatheic acceptance for a Humanitarian cause and also the new converts add to their numbers. Several western buddhists have equated Budhhism to a reductionistic materialistic philosophy completely ignoring the metaphysical and teach buddhism as a sort of religious emiricipsm.But all these are now considered as paths of Buddhism. The same accusations you make on Hinduism I can level on Buddhism as well. Anand Coomarswamy the famus sri lankan and irish scholar on buddhism even remarked in early 1900s that ‘Buddhism is most famous today for everything it originally never taught’.
But I can well understand the similarities between the hindu and buddhist traditions which you fail to see due to your political alignment. Also Buddhism has its share of superstitions and myths. I don’t want to go into
all that. Even taoism has so many ridioulous superstitions and myths. It is a different fact if you confine it to a set of texts you yourself choose. In fact all the things you accuse to Hinduism can be accused to the Taoist
and Buddhist tradition as well. The taoist tradition has a whole lot of creation myths equally absurd (the myth of pagu and many many others). Even the stories of Buddhas birth have many absurd ‘non-rational’ elements. You can selectively choose whatever you want to blieve from these traditions. And again who makes the rules?
I will reply to the rest of your post after the weekend.
cool said
|| Since I am an atheist , you must be already knowing my answer to this.Personally , I believe in Buddhism (especially the zen sect) and Taoism.These two deserve to be called as ‘eastern religions” , as opposed to western ones (including vedicism).A “Creator” , in the english language , is the initiator of life, of everything that “exists”.And I certainly don’t believe in it.The “Brahman” proposed in Advaita vedanta is not a creator , but a substratum of everything.Unlike , the emptiness in Buddhism , “Brahman” has independent existence with no prior cause for it , instead it is a cause for everything else.I find this concept ridiculous.You can read Nagarjuna’s ( a Buddhist Logician of ancient India) Mulamadhyamakarika for the justification of it.||
Sure mate, I shall get a copy of the Mulamadhyamakarika translation and read it. Lets not talk abt what deserves to be called what. The mind is fluid eevrywhere, categorization serves no objective purpose.
You talk of atheism as the lack of a creator when in reality it overlaps with agnosticism. This ‘divide’ of accepting a creator or the lack of one is ancient — not from or restricted to buddhism — is very much a Sanaatan philosophy. Yes, the advaitha brahman is not a creator – the concept can be rather agnostic – and wud depend on how you wud see a ‘creator’.
The ’substratum of everything’ as you speak is ‘energy’ – rather kundalini enerygy – or the enerygy that keeps us ‘alive’. The physical conscious world is the product of karmic energy or emotional energy, of every thought that we think. You wud wonder what is this karmic / emotional enerygy that lights up our thoughts and ‘decides’ germ thoughts in the para of the prana? Often when you sit to collect those parinamas (transformations / results) that cause vrittis (thoughts), you wud start ‘travelling’ (read understanding) to where it came from. Sometimes you travel very far back and very long (a few hours everyday over months). Many times you do not reach the source, yet you feel peace (though its the journey that caused it not the destination, its a feeling of having ’spent’ away energy and a strange peace that comes with it). Many other times, you do reach the source (not sure if can actually call it a ’source’). In a lightening flash you seem to understand why you think, the way you think. You wud end up separating your I from the self simply to view / understand / comprehend that. Once the ‘awareness’ of the thought happens, it slowly seems to fade away, the ‘thought’ simply ceases to exist. Why? I do not know. The vrittis just does not exist anymore. The mind becomes blank and there is a sense of peace. Am not able to define this peace – its hard to come ‘back’ or out of it. There is this ‘awareness’ of ‘wanting’ to ‘go’ somewhere. Call me a liar / hypocrite / schizophrenic my friend, you are free to laugh at me. Am not sure if i shd feel ashamed abt anything. Am still handling my unintelligent ego in the external physical conscious world (again, i may want to remind you that ego is not restricted to ppl of a certain community only, its everywhere, so y target 1 group?).
Since you talk of the ‘creator’ not ‘existing’ and of professing the zen philosophy, let me propose a simple situation to you (the rationalist):
Say you took a decision after a lot of planning and strategizing. You used logic to eliminate all the situations that might cause impediments to your plan. But you do not know kala (time) or tomorrow (you might even be dead), yet you eliminated those situations in good faith; hoping the end result would be as per your expectations. So, it is in good faith that you exercised your logic. MEaning, it is logical to use faith. Can you rationalize logic? What makes you so sure you won’t be dead tomorrow? Faith is logical my friend.
The buddhist nyaya’s core concept is the (justification of the) lack of a creator – the ideology is that the creation is the created and vice-versa; since both exist and support one another, there is no room for a seperate ‘creator’. This has been spoken of extensively in adi shankara’s brahmasutra bhasya (am told ramanuja’s work is more intriguing). The questions i loved most in it were those based on ‘evolution’: of how can the inert pradhana / prakriti have the sense or the will to design / create. If there is no perpetual evolution / dissolution, then there is an ‘intelligent purpose’ / a particular “management system” controlling it. The Vaisheshika school traces the entire world to primary atoms, posits and clearly expounds the adrishta or the unseen power responsible for bringing them together or seperating them. This is a topic I love knowing, and its beyond the present pages to talk abt here.
All I can say that if you say there is no creator, please prove it to me there is no creator. Similarly i cannot prove to you that a creator exists. If anything cannot be proven or disproven, it is at best sought to be learnt; not to reject. For there is no object to such a subject; neither can we presume there will ever be.
True brahman is the cause for everything, sarvam kalvidham brahma. If there is no ‘perception” of the effective cause of the brain – the mind, then there is nothing left to perceive. In such a case, we wudn’t be talking here.
Its funny we ended up talking abt this, when in reality we are talking abt my “Shudra mentality”
fyi, the one that penned the brahmasutra was a shudra — Badrayana or Vedvyas (believed to be an avatara of Vishnu’s cognitive energy). Honestly I do not know why there is so much derogatory-ness associated with being a shudra. If that is my caste / social classification, so be it. I have absolutely no prob with it and wonder why it should trouble you / any1 in anyway. Am not capable of the difficult and suffocating lifestyle of a priest, nor do i have the inclination to fight like a warrior and am a complete zero as a trader or with money. So, what does that make me?
fallen monk said
Mr. Cool ,
But you do not know kala (time) or tomorrow (you might even be dead), yet you eliminated those situations in good faith; hoping the end result would be as per your expectations. So, it is in good faith that you exercised your logic. MEaning, it is logical to use faith.
The reason that I eliminated these situations is not because I have a faith or “expectation” of some atmosphere wherein I might reach my objective.I will tell you the true logic behind my eliminating of those situations : I see that there are two possibilities if I work towards an objective – either it will happen or not.It can’t be both at the same time.There are two further possibilities now ; either I work towards the goal or I drop it because it might happen to be a failure.Now I reason that If I choose the latter , and suppose my “obstructions” would have even arisen ,then I would lose my objective for nothing.If I chose the former , and eliminate the situations that may interfere in my goal , and If I am still unable reach it I will still lose nothing , whereas If its successful I would achieve the goal.
In other words , it is not the faith of being in a good position that leads me to work towards my objective , but the possibility of achieving it rather than completely avoiding it and losing what I could’ve gained.
Faith is a different thing and logic is another.Yet both cannot be separated.I base my logic on “facts” (I can’t operate logic on nothing) and the belief in these facts arises from faith.However , it would be completely wrong to say that Faith is logical.
Perhaps you , as a hindu , have that kind of logical approach – faith.But this is quite minimum as a Buddhist or a Taoist or a Sufi.
again, i may want to remind you that ego is not restricted to ppl of a certain community only, its everywhere, so y target 1 group?
The scriptures create conditions for caste hindus to fall in this pitfall of ego , unlike the case of dalits and tribals.Human greed , hatred etc arises from this ego only and is very difficult to control.Brahmins are more likely to have these qualities because the religion approves them of being “purer” , “twice-born” etc.And therefore , the dalits and tribals will always fight such hindus to end the tyranny.
I won’t comment on your second para as I agree with most of it , and also because it is not related to the theme of discussion.
All I can say that if you say there is no creator, please prove it to me there is no creator.
This I will attempt to reply.
“Creation” is a deceiving word , as it is merely the process of transforming from one form to another.Nothing gets created out of nothing.There are two questions that arise if we assume that world is created by a created:-
1. From what is the “creation” created.
2. Creator surely exists .Who created the creator?
It is not the absurdness of the concept of a Creator that leads me to not believe in it , but rather , the unnecessity , more so , to believe in it.When there is no use acknowledging a creator then why bother about it?
True brahman is the cause for everything, sarvam kalvidham brahma.
It is a completely rubbish concept created by Shankara by twisting Buddhism and the Upanishads.
Honestly I do not know why there is so much derogatory-ness associated with being a shudra.
Honestly I do not even know why there is a need to attach new nomenclature (like shudra) to people , worse so , based on the accident of birth.Most of the shudras are happy being shudras , be it.No one can oppose them if they like these terms , even being aware that it has a social rank attached to it by religion.
Those who want to live a life of freedom and dignity will surely lose such useless terms stamped on them by some idiots.
cool said
so posting under happyhindu is blocked??
dalitnation, i am as much you as you are me. y block me?
targetting hindusim or brahmins wont solve your probs.
instead you may want to target ppl like me – for as long ppl like me continues to profess hindusim in any form including a definitve mix of atheism and theism; or like my dad atheism alone as according to him (& probably like u), he has ‘not seen god’, then brahmins and brahminism will exist.
the real prob lies with the rouges you call politicians. and the biggest prob lies with the ones that pay them to continue the divide and rule legacy.
Saju Carlos said
Buddhism a false religion as Hinduism. They are cult of satan. Buddha is also false prophet and has no answers for sufferings of peoples. The teaching is all meditation and other satanic activity. Buddha teaches emptying of mind which is easy entry for satan control. emptying mind is a satan mind. Buddha is not save the dalits. Buddha also abandoned wife and children. He teach individual salvation like the hindus and naked sadus and jains. only saviour of sin is Jesus christ. Can Buddha save you from the sins. Because salvation is only happens through Jesus. = only way dalits can be saved is through Jesus. It is through the Bible the darkness of india can be removed. don’t go back to the india of past of buddha and brahmins. Dalits should convert to Christianity and gain salvation both social and spiritual – because jesus is spirt and lord. Kingdom of god is teached by jesus only. Buddha only teached rebirth and you will come as a pig in your next life and also cockroach. which is nonsense and a work of satan. it is the kingdom of god dalits should reach. Jesus loves all. All hindu and buddhist in dark ages in india.
Dilip Muralidaran said
Sajor Carlos: Fantastic. I have been waiting for a rabid Christian fanatic like you to blabber your rubbish so that i can ask you some sensible questions for which you can provide straightforward, direct, honest and sensible answers.
If the bible is the word of so called god and if god is a ocean of mercy then why is god so immoral and cruel with his creations as per your bible? I’m not trying to justify hinduism or islam, they are more or less equally evil too as like any religion but from a humanitarian point of view being an atheist and a free thinker i ask why is your bible god so blood thirsty a bitch?
I know you have no clue because you know nothing about the bible. Let me explain what i mean…
“Genesis 6:5-8 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Genesis 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.”
So what does this imply here. God is not perfect. He created an imperfect human as per his own words. Why? Because if he was perfect he would have created a perfect man who would be so perfect that man would not have disobeyed god in the first place!
Second Kings 2:23-24 And he [Elisha] went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
Wow, he kills 40 odd children, INNOCENT children because they called him a bald head ??/ What the hell!
Numbers 31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
Numbers 31:14-18 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
The Bible claims they killed all the men, all the boys and all the non-virgin females in the name of their god. The remaining women were kept “for themselves”. It’s left to the imagination as to what that means but most likely they were raped as sex-slaves after witnessing their loved ones and family put to the sword.
Also kindly explain all of these “Holy Words of the Book of God” “THE BIBLE”…
The genocide of the Amalekites (Ex 17:13)
The genocide of the Canaanites (Num 21:3)
The genocide of the Bashanites (Num 21:35)
Yahweh personally slaughters the Zamzummims and the Horims (Deut 2:21-22)
The genocide of the Heshbonites (Deut 2:34)
The genocide of the Bashanites (Deut 3:6) (Again? How many times can a kingdom be utterly destroyed?)
Yahweh orders the genocide of the Amalekites (Deut 25:19) (again?)
The merciless bloodbath upon taking the city of Jericho (Josh 6:21)
The slaughter of the entire city of Ai (Josh 8:22-26)
Clever thinking by the Gibeonites allows them to be spared but they will live as slaves (Josh 9:23)
The slaughter of the Amorites (Josh 10:10-13)
The genocide of seven different kingdoms (Josh 10:28-40)
The genocide of the Hazorites (Josh 11:11)
The genocide of the Anakims (Josh 11:21)
Genocide of the Caananites (again?) and Perizzites (Judges 1:5)
Massacre at Jerusalem (Judges 1:8)
More massacres at Zephath (Judges 1:17)
Massacre at Bathel (Judges 1:25)
The men of the city of Succoth are put to the sword (Judges 8:17)
Yahweh personally smote the people of Sihon (Judges 11:21)
Genocide against the Ammonites (Judges 11:33)
Samson kills himself to destroy a Philistine city (Judges 16:30)
The “quiet and unsuspecting” people of Laish are massacred (Judges 18)
The capture, rape and sex slavery of the young female virgins of Jabesh-Gilead (all other citizens are slaughtered). When there aren’t enough young virgins to go around, more women are captured from Shiloh (Judges 21).
Saul slaughters more Ammonites (1st Sam 11:11)
Saul mercilessly slaughters Philistines (1st Sam 14:36)
Genocide against the Amalekites except the king and the sheep (1st Sam 15:7-8)
Yahweh is angry that Saul showed mercy on the king and the sheep (1st Sam 15:18-19)
David beats Saul in a killing contest (1st Sam 18:6-7)
David slaughters more Amalekites (1st Sam 30:17). This is the third time in the Bible they’ve been massacred. Apparently, there are more of them every summer.
David kills two thirds of the Moabites and enslaves the survivors. (2nd Sam 8:2)
David gruesomely hacks to death the inhabitants of the cities of the children of Ammon. (2nd Sam 12:31)
Amaziah slaughters 10,000 Edomites (2nd Kings 14:7)
Slaughter in Tirzah, including pregnant women being graphically “ripped up” (2nd Kings 15:16)
The Ethiopian cities around Gerar are massacred after Yahweh destroys their armies. (2nd Chron 14:14)
When Yahweh gets angry at his own people, he sends the Chaldeans to mercilessly slaughter even the young and those stooped with age. (2nd Chron 36:17).
Also the Bible god likes to kill disobedient children…
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; …And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
This is only starters… I will post 10 times this amount when you answer my questions. You may now spend you dollars answering my questions instead of converting innocent poor dalits.
Peppi Mint said
Guys Guys Guys Hold your horses. This blog is discussing aishwarya rai and how she has been exploited – thats what this joker who wrote it claims. Now you people just jump in and talk of all kinds of things like hinduism, buddhism and vedas and all that. Guys get a life. AIshwarya rai is nice cute girl who every guy wanted to lay hands on. And now this fellow dalit nation has been fantasizing about her for many years. Now she gets married and he goes ballistic and talks of conspiracy theory. Look aishwarya is finished now. She is not hot anymore. No bollywood herione is hot after marriage. get it straight guys. Talk about deepika padukone instead. She is getting laid by yuvraj singh.
happyindianhindu said
Fallenmonk,
|| The reason that I eliminated these situations is not because I have a faith or “expectation” of some atmosphere wherein I might reach my objective.I will tell you the true logic behind my eliminating of those situations : I see that there are two possibilities if I work towards an objective – either it will happen or not.It can’t be both at the same time.There are two further possibilities now ; either I work towards the goal or I drop it because it might happen to be a failure.Now I reason that If I choose the latter , and suppose my “obstructions” would have even arisen ,then I would lose my objective for nothing.If I chose the former , and eliminate the situations that may interfere in my goal , and If I am still unable reach it I will still lose nothing , whereas If its successful I would achieve the goal.
In other words , it is not the faith of being in a good position that leads me to work towards my objective , but the possibility of achieving it rather than completely avoiding it and losing what I could’ve gained.||
In other words, you are exercizing free-will and working hard to make a success out of your decision irrespective of what the fruits of your (hard) work may be. Meaning, you are following the path of nishphal karma (doing your karma without expectations) (this is what Krishna says in the bhagvad gita). But anyways, what do you think brought you to that point of free-will? What do you think caused the “event” that resulted in your being able to exercize free-will to work on it?
|| Faith is a different thing and logic is another.Yet both cannot be separated.I base my logic on “facts” (I can’t operate logic on nothing) and the belief in these facts arises from faith.However , it would be completely wrong to say that Faith is logical. Perhaps you , as a hindu , have that kind of logical approach – faith.But this is quite minimum as a Buddhist or a Taoist or a Sufi.||
So you accept that faith and logic, though different, cannot be seperated. Yet you say it is “wrong” to say faith is logical. On what basis? Have you explored your sense of perception to various events in your life to see where there have been perceptual errors? Do you think you can or have ‘learnt’ from it? What would be ‘minimum’ as faith in your dictionary / mind?
|| The scriptures create conditions for caste hindus to fall in this pitfall of ego , unlike the case of dalits and tribals.Human greed , hatred etc arises from this ego only and is very difficult to control.Brahmins are more likely to have these qualities because the religion approves them of being “purer” , “twice-born” etc.And therefore , the dalits and tribals will always fight such hindus to end the tyranny.||
The scriptures do not create conditions, they “point out” conditions that make / had made / can make any human fall into the pitfall of ego. Are you saying “human qualities” such as greed and hatered is restricted to the brahmins alone? I too have the ability for hatered and greed in me. And I am not a brahmin. Have you examined yourself carefully??
Lets say you remove all so-called upper caste ppl. And made a world of dalits alone. Do you think greed will be removed?
|| “Creation” is a deceiving word , as it is merely the process of transforming from one form to another.Nothing gets created out of nothing.There are two questions that arise if we assume that world is created by a created:-
1. From what is the “creation” created.
2. Creator surely exists .Who created the creator?||
What caused this transformation? The words you use “nothing gets created out of nothing” are ancient indeed. Try any upanishad, you will find purnamidham purnamadham purnarthpoornamudachyathe, poornasyapoorna madaya poornameva ashishyate. This is infinity, that is infinity, from infinity is born infinity, if you remove infinity from infinity, infinity still remains. So tell me, what is the nature of infnity? If you say creation is merely transformation, you must be able to explain the nature this transformation.
Ofcourse energy is neither created nor destroyed, only transformed. The creator too is neither created not destroyed, only transformed. The creator (to me) is a higher energy, a higher force, an “intelligent” designer, the causative effective and the effective cause for everyting. I may see Him or It as Narayana, as Shiva, Brahma, Parvati, Lakshmi, Ganesha, as all attributes of the same divine. Just as I wud feel content in the presence of Baba (Sai), Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, monks from the Ramakrishna Mission, Shivananda Ashram and so on…for all of them to me represent the same divine force in absolutes or relatives.
|| It is not the absurdness of the concept of a Creator that leads me to not believe in it , but rather , the unnecessity , more so , to believe in it.When there is no use acknowledging a creator then why bother about it?||
So the concept of a creator is un-necessary? Have you tried to understand, how and why did your mind cause it to feel un-necessary? Acknowledging a creator seems to happen naturally to some; and yes they too do not bother about it, for it is an extremely private thing. On what basis do you think such a personal affair should become part of politics, part of a public domain?
|| It is a completely rubbish concept created by Shankara by twisting Buddhism and the Upanishads.||
Before Shankara, millions of souls that sought felt it. No concept belongs to one person alone. Vaani (sound energy) at the madhyama level (emotional level) is the same for all; only at the Vaikhari (spoken) level it gets expressed in the differentiated form. If you air is air, you are right. If you air (or ayer) is water, you are right too. There are no rights and wrongs in bhava (that what is felt). Some express it, some don’t. It doesn’t mean it is not felt.
|| Honestly I do not even know why there is a need to attach new nomenclature (like shudra) to people , worse so , based on the accident of birth.Most of the shudras are happy being shudras , be it.No one can oppose them if they like these terms , even being aware that it has a social rank attached to it by religion.
Those who want to live a life of freedom and dignity will surely lose such useless terms stamped on them by some idiots.||
If it is difference of ideology and religion you want to talk about, its fine with me. If you want to attack any community as means to further your ideology, its not fine with me. Lets leave the communities alone, and talk about the idealogies. Brahmins are not the cause for casteism, they are as much a product of casteism as you and me are.
Its the system, that needs reform and change. Like ‘neo-Judaism’ came to represent all points of that cannot be carried into the next century (many jews were converting), hindusim too needs reform and change. But is there a ‘body’ like an ecumenical council that decides these things? Someday it might become a necessity and it will happen. However, I hope you understand as a bottomline — it is pointless attacking the religion.
Perhaps Shudra should then be re-defined as not a social class but a spiritual class — anyone who feels like a dasa / dasi in search of the providence of divinity, qualifies to be a shudra (i wud qualify i think
).
happyindianhindu said
Fallenmonk,
Kancha often says brahmins must share temple wealth with us dalits, must let us become priests and so on.
I want you to examine the following questions carefully. Since hopefully many dalits will also be reading this, hence these questions:
1) Are you capable of a strict disciplined life? Get up early in the morning every single day? Commit to a life centred around several rituals and practices?
2) Can you live without good food (read: meat), some booze, and avoid those nightly soujourns as and when needed? As a teenager, can you avoid a few flings (get wht i mean)?
3) Are you willing to commit to learning large volumes of data? Of having unwavering focus in it? Living a life with ‘limited’ entertainment?
If I cannot be like that, how wud you think I can raise my kids like that? The family atmosphere how a kid is raised certainly counts i suppose (sure lotus flowers in dirty water, but as regular temple priets?).
Honestly mate, its easier being a monk than a brahman.
Kripal said
I think you guys are just wasting time discussing about Hinduism here.Hinduism is the greatest and oldest religion in the world. It has survived the onsloughts of so many invaders and barbarians. Do you think these dalit nations and dalit voice and these jokers can do any harm to hinduism. Everyone knows where their funding comes from and what they actually stand for. Like barking dogs these people bark at hinduism.
Saucer said
I think the only intellegent guy here is Clement. He has asked the right questions. Dalit nation and its mentors Kancha Ilaiah and V.T.Rajashekar should answer those questions and write articles on how Brahmins killed dinasourous and made the cow the national animal. We dalits need to know the truth about this.
Again, coming to the latest Bird flu epidemic, is there any link with Brahmins and the the Bird Flu. Please dalit nation let us know.
happyhindu said
Saucer,
You kill an enemy by making a friend out of him.
For dalits, their needs are real. They live in the real world (of dirt and pain). But their attention and abilities have been harnessed elsewhere by exploiters.
These are ppl who genuinely believe the cause for their suffering is the hindu caste system. Its pointless to criticize them. If they write useless articles to seek attention, it doesn’t mean you write useless stuff as well.
An eye for an eye turns the whole world blind.
fallen monk said
HappyHindu ,
First I will answer the second post of yours.
Are you capable of a strict disciplined life? Get up early in the morning every single day? Commit to a life centred around several rituals and practices?
Leave aside the rituals and scriptures (and any other non-sense related to it) , observe a dalit mazdoor one day.His/her sleep is far less than a brahmin and he/she is far more hardworking and disciplined.Of course , poverty , discrimination and oppression develops in them some very bad habits of drinking , smoking etc.Rituals and such practices are useless , and the main reason for the mentality of a brahmin.
Can you live without good food (read: meat), some booze, and avoid those nightly soujourns as and when needed? As a teenager, can you avoid a few flings (get wht i mean)?
Anyone with good determination can.
Do you really think that brahmins never eat good food , booze , or have sex?I know several brahmins who drink , smoke and are also drug addicts (in some cases).Many eat meat , through the excuse of sacrifice in many northern and eastern regions.Read newspapers daily and you will find many brahmins being convicted for murder , rape etc.A few weeks back I read a newspaper article of how a brahmin mother and daughter duo (mother was a lawyer and daughter was a student of medicine) first kidnapped a daughter and then murdered him in a very horrific manner.I have seen many brahmins (i recognize because of their pony tail) scolding the labourers with so much hatred and anger , and it shows how much they care about religion and spirituality.Just performing some useless scriptures everyday doesn’t mean discipline.
Come out of ignorance that brahmins are really very disciplined , humble , honest and wise human beings.As far as I have seen most brahmins are just normal human beings , with nothing extraordinary except superiority complex.
Are you willing to commit to learning large volumes of data? Of having unwavering focus in it? Living a life with ‘limited’ entertainment?
Learning large volumes of data?Are trying to point to the scriptures?Well , in that case I should remind you that most brahmins have left their scriptures and rituals , as they are useless to live a comfortable life with.Limited entertainment?Most brahmins , like this Amitabh Bacchan , Madhuri Dixit etc , are , in fact , a source of entertainment , and themselves live with complete comfort and luxury.
Honestly mate, its easier being a monk than a brahman.
You cunningly changed the word “brahmin” which you began your post with , with “brahman” , and I know what will your next reply be of mine.You will counter by saying that you were referring to brahmin by deeds (rather than birth).I would advice you , in that case , you don’t reply at all.It would save your time as well as effort.Hearing utopian concepts of “brahmin-by-birth” again and again is quite irritating , when everyone knows that you are honestly defending brahmins-by-birth only.You yourself know this , ask your conscience how desperately you are trying to defend the brahmins by trying to invent logic , along with your ornamental words.
I am sure you are a brahmin.Only a brahmin uses such cowardice tactics.
fallen monk said
Happyhindu,
Are you saying “human qualities” such as greed and hatered is restricted to the brahmins alone?
No , I never said that.Read my post again.All I said was that the scriptures , which gives the brahmins the titles like “twice-born’ , “purer” etc , make them more vulnerable to become greedy and oppressive.And this is also the reason why I am attacking the source , i.e the scriptures , rather than the brahmins themselves.Just because greed is everywhere doesn’t mean that we should ignore it.We must find a remedy against it , and this is what I am doing.
Brahmins are not the cause for casteism, they are as much a product of casteism as you and me are.
Please explain how they are not the cause for casteism.And also , who is the cause of casteism?
First of all , your statement is itself paradoxical.You make reference to a caste (brahmins) who are supposed to be above everyone else in hierarchy , and then claim that they didn’t create the caste-system.Who started calling them brahmins then?If they are a product of casteism then someone might have surely invented this system.And who else could it be except the ones who claimed to be the highest (if the scriptural evidence is to be ignored)?
Perhaps Shudra should then be re-defined as not a social class but a spiritual class
At least you admit that it is social class and not a spiritual class , as you were trying to justify in one of your earlier posts , even though you won’t admit its origins as the scriptures themselves.
happyhindu said
|| Leave aside the rituals and scriptures (and any other non-sense related to it) , observe a dalit mazdoor one day.His/her sleep is far less than a brahmin and he/she is far more hardworking and disciplined.Of course , poverty , discrimination and oppression develops in them some very bad habits of drinking , smoking etc.Rituals and such practices are useless , and the main reason for the mentality of a brahmin.
Anyone with good determination can. Do you really think that brahmins never eat good food , booze , or have sex?I know several brahmins who drink , smoke and are also drug addicts (in some cases).Many eat meat , through the excuse of sacrifice in many northern and eastern regions.Read newspapers daily and you will find many brahmins being convicted for murder , rape etc.A few weeks back I read a newspaper article of how a brahmin mother and daughter duo (mother was a lawyer and daughter was a student of medicine) first kidnapped a daughter and then murdered him in a very horrific manner.I have seen many brahmins (i recognize because of their pony tail) scolding the labourers with so much hatred and anger , and it shows how much they care about religion and spirituality.Just performing some useless scriptures everyday doesn’t mean discipline.
Come out of ignorance that brahmins are really very disciplined , humble , honest and wise human beings.As far as I have seen most brahmins are just normal human beings , with nothing extraordinary except superiority complex.
Learning large volumes of data?Are trying to point to the scriptures?Well , in that case I should remind you that most brahmins have left their scriptures and rituals , as they are useless to live a comfortable life with.Limited entertainment?Most brahmins , like this Amitabh Bacchan , Madhuri Dixit etc , are , in fact , a source of entertainment , and themselves live with complete comfort and luxury.||
I was referreing to the lifestyle of brahmin priests in the temples. Not to everyday brahmins; who are probably as good or as bad as me. But think of it, its this Indian culture to hold onto past background. In this age of technology, do we go around asking ppl — r u a brahmin or r u dalit? Does caste matter at all. Very true a mazdoor’s life is far-far tougher than a brahmin’s. And in rural places, casteism still exists. But will targetting the religion genuinely help? Instead can your focus be changed to acquiring education, skills, etc that will truly help your upliftment? Bashing religion will only exhaust your energies as such non-productive pursuits get you nowhere.
|| You cunningly changed the word “brahmin” which you began your post with , with “brahman” , and I know what will your next reply be of mine.You will counter by saying that you were referring to brahmin by deeds (rather than birth).I would advice you , in that case , you don’t reply at all.It would save your time as well as effort.Hearing utopian concepts of “brahmin-by-birth” again and again is quite irritating , when everyone knows that you are honestly defending brahmins-by-birth only.You yourself know this , ask your conscience how desperately you are trying to defend the brahmins by trying to invent logic , along with your ornamental words.
I am sure you are a brahmin.Only a brahmin uses such cowardice tactics.||
I am not defending brahmin by birth. I promise on God, I am not a brahmin, neither do I need to pretend to be anything. Its a situation I posed to you. I am not capable of such a disciplined life (its suffocating for me). I have been raised in a rather comfortable way, thence that attitude. Its easier for me being a monk of sorts inside my head, not restricted to specific ritual behavior or anything that i cannot relate to, to give up desire as and when that detachment comes and not given to a prescribed way of life. If you are capable of leading a life like that then its good for you. We will not have shortage of priests 10 years from now on.
|| No , I never said that.Read my post again.All I said was that the scriptures , which gives the brahmins the titles like “twice-born’ , “purer” etc , make them more vulnerable to become greedy and oppressive.And this is also the reason why I am attacking the source , i.e the scriptures , rather than the brahmins themselves.Just because greed is everywhere doesn’t mean that we should ignore it.We must find a remedy against it , and this is what I am doing.||
Being ‘twice-born’ was designed to get rid of all base emotions like greed and make a man given to acquiring knowledge and serving God with devotion and without ego. How do you think anyone bcame ‘purer’ when there are so many saints amongst non-brahmins?
The scriptures are not the source, they are the prescriptions and old patient records. How you want to take the medicine, whether you want to take that or a different medicine, etc…all depends on you, how you want to view things. Since you know your body best, you should seek counsel but also exercise some of your own discretion and do what suits you or you will end up with an allergic reaction.
|| Please explain how they are not the cause for casteism.And also , who is the cause of casteism?
First of all , your statement is itself paradoxical.You make reference to a caste (brahmins) who are supposed to be above everyone else in hierarchy , and then claim that they didn’t create the caste-system.Who started calling them brahmins then?If they are a product of casteism then someone might have surely invented this system.And who else could it be except the ones who claimed to be the highest (if the scriptural evidence is to be ignored)?||
Shankara already explained how the system came about due to a feudal society. We have atleast 10,000 years of ancient Indian history. Brahmans were not the highest hirearchy in many hindu cultures in the past.
Let me give you an example: Lets say, a king won a war (they always went for fertile land, good water, etc remember we are an agrarian society – most are, world-wide (earliest domesticated men were farmers ofcourse), many kings were not really kshatriyas but traders / farmers owning large tracts of land, applies to the maurya times too and perhaps even in the very ancient times, the whole kshtriya thing is a undone-done thing — please read the bhavishya purana, it says a bit about how kshatriyas came about).
After a war (always for land, sometimes for women, rarely for culture) was won, then to make a ‘constitution’ with a governing body for law, order, revenue collection, etc (the ‘government’), the kings would commission a brahman to become a law-maker. The brahman with his disciples (like say apasthamba) wrote laws for that country together with/ as instructed by the ruler. To ensure his generations always remained kings, the kings often asked for laws to be made such that caste is an occupation and is by birth. It depended on how good the king was. Am told sometimes they did not ask for such a clause it seems (am not sure abt this though). The law was mainly to ensure continuity of professions to prevent too much crowding into some lucarative occupations (eg: traders managing huge revenue guilds were either controlled by the king or were always usually related to the king). True brahman families were well taken care of. But above all, all that a brahman really earned was the highest form of respect — “reverence”.
The families of the brahmans and kings also married it seems (i hear a few such inter-caste marriages happened even in recent feudal societies, meaning past 16th century, though the sources cannot be authenticated). The rulers were rather clever — marriage was used as an effective social tool — either to make peace or to forge alliances with families of traders and brahman royal advisors. They had many wives (but a larger number of concubines than wives, wives were rather ’selected’ ones). Families (both trader and brahman ones) related to the kings wielded much power. So you have a whole class of people as so-called ‘upper castes’ — brahmans, kings and traders. But the kings themselves were in fact shudras and farmers (or a mix of food producers and food gatherers) since the advent of the maurya times (minus the muslim ones). So, its confusing as to who opppressed who. In fact, nobody did. All that they wanted was to ensure continutity of professions. The societies during those times seemed prosperous. So nobody seemed to bother. If you have money, will you be bothered about what ‘caste’ you belong to? So, where is the “caste system” you are talking about?
Many many ages ago before the feudal times, caste was by birth in some cultures and not by birth in some other hindu cultures (probably decided either by kings or by brahmins themselves). This was like before atleast 2500 years (resolved most times with inter-mingling) and practically in disuse; since feudal societies had already taken root since a v.long time. The brahmans simply wrote and preserved that stuff recording it as very ancient history (unfortunately perhaps). The colonials wanted to find ways to justify british intervention in indian society (like america justifying a pre-emptive strike in iraq). It did not help that we were like crabs doing a lot of in-fighting. Practically every pre-colonial literature sent to the queen’s counsel referred to the manu smrithi. And thus was born the “divide and rule” legacy — the caste system was “used” to justify british intervention in India — to ‘liberate’ them from it. To be civilized meant to be christianized. And this is what is being continued after these many years of ‘freedom’ — this divide and rule legacy.
Now what we have on our hands is diffrence of class, not caste or culture; diffrence of the status of money. What you need is money not caste. Why confuse both as the same? You can be a brahman and poor and a shudra and rich. It does seem to me the better off shudras are not bothered about caste. So, its all about money. If you going to harp on caste and culture, then how do you hope to uplift your class? Is it not better for you to focus on education and skills instead?
|| At least you admit that it is social class and not a spiritual class , as you were trying to justify in one of your earlier posts , even though you won’t admit its origins as the scriptures themselves.||
Brahmans recorded “events” like history. Such literature is not really religious and can be debunked. Ask Shankara more about this please.
End note: I have attempted to expain the best I could and my sources may not all be right. Shankara, please explain from the religion point of view in more detail. Thanks.
happyhindu said
Shankara,
Also please can you explain if what i have written about this otehr stuff is correct please? Thanks much (as my history knowledge is very limited, based mainly on hear say with some internet and few books and this is a nice practical model). Thanks very-very much.
HealTheLand said
It is time the dalits removed this Satan called Hinduism that is tormenting them. Hinduism is an evil spirit that needs to be cast away. Paul did so regarding a demon dwelling in a human, but it can also be done with demons dwelling in places and afflicting situations, and there is nothing preventing you or any other born – again Christian from doing the same at any time and place: to spot or acknowledge the presence of an evil spirit, determine that the evil spirit’s presence is undesired (which will almost always be the case), and to tell the evil spirit to leave in the Name of Jesus Christ. The Dalits can be saved in the Name of Jesus.
Dalit Man said
I am dalit and I am not in caste system. My question to Dalit Nation and all Dalit people is which religion convert to: Buddhism, Chrisitianity or Islam. I am at Tamil nadu and here Buddhism is not much..there is no support for Buddhists also here. Tamil Nadu there is christians and mulsims. I want to convert to christianity along with my family and three relatives families related to us. Because christianity is okay in TN and more than Islam. Also in christianity no need to change name and all. so i want to know any places in madurai where we can convert. Where is the church and place to convert and what to do with convert and later.
Rashid said
The only solution to the plight of the Dalits is through conversion to Islam. I was a buddhist once and worked for the delhi development authority. Also built lot of Buddhist Viharas in Delhi slums. One day I found that they had all the illegal construction removed by bull dozers but these people in the delhi development authority spared a temple. at that time there was conversion in meenkashipuram of dalits to islam. I saw how dalits got a new life and after islam no one dared to disturb them. Because islam gives solidarity and unity.
Dalits were the original inhabitants of this land, and some three thousand years ago, the fair-skinned Aryans invaded India from the north-west, subduing the original inhabitants, the Dravidians, and turning them into slaves. Now to keep them subjugated, physical force had to be supplemented with ideological and cultural force, and so you had the development of Brahminism and all its scriptures and superstitions.The real basis of Brahminism, which is really what Hinduism is all about, is the caste system, based as it is on the supremacy of the Brahmins and the degradation of the Dalits, treating them worse than animals. Cows, snakes and monkeys are worshipped in Hinduism, while the Dalits are treated worse than vermin. Thus, in order to be liberated from the caste system, the Dalits first need to liberate themselves from Hinduism.Ambedkar was aware that the most effective means for Dalit liberation was through converting to Islam. He said that the Dalits could choose from between Sikhism, Christianity or Islam, but added that Islam seemed to offer the Dalits the best deal. He commented on how Muslims are so closely united, and how the bond of Islamic brotherhood has no parallels in any other religious community or tradition. It is revealing to note that at this time he made no mention at all of Buddhism. The Nizam of Hyderabad granted him a huge sum of money for his educational projects and Muslims in East Bengal helped him get elected to the Constituent Assembly in the face of stiff Hindu opposition.
There is this massive Muslim population in India. If the Dalits were to convert to Islam, they could easily be absorbed into the Muslim community, shedding off their Dalit-ness, in the process empowered by joining the fold of a large community.
Fallen monk said
Hinduism , Christianity , Islam etc are all bad.The only use of religions is to control the masses.It would be better for dalits to choose a religion which has better social values and has better support for a dalit in the world.
So I would appreciate the dalits if they convert to Christianity or Islam or Sikhism or even Buddhism.Just shed off this stamp of dalit that has been given to them by the Hindus.Some dalits can just stay as atheists , like me , but will have to struggle to fight for equality.
Also , this RSS should be taught a lesson.They always have a problem when dalits and tribals convert to ‘other’ religions.Hindus should mind their own business , as tribals and dalits are not ‘Hindus’.
Bhikku Richard said
@Fallen Monk
After vanquishing and finishing off the Hindus, how do you think you can acheive unity and fraternity between Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Atheism. All these religions are at each others throats. I have stayed in India, Thailand, Malaysia and China and see the Missionaries are sparing no efforts to convert the Buddhists into Christianity. Same with the Muslims. The Hindus (of dravidian Tamilian origin and they are quite staunch Hindus) in Malaysia have been discriminated by the ethnic Malaysian Muslims. The Muslim malays have even rules in their constitution which discriminate people of other religions and ethnicity. The Hindus in the south east asian countries have a common cause with the Buddhists against the Muslims and Christians, quite rightly so as they have been denied their rights and want a decent living. They are under lot of pressure as their basic right to practice their religion and other fundamental rights (in case of Malay Hindus) are threatened.
How do you think all these will be reconciled. Is the destruction of Hinduism the panacea for all the ills of India and the world.
fallen monk said
Bhikku,
They are under lot of pressure as their basic right to practice their religion and other fundamental rights (in case of Malay Hindus) are threatened.
This blog is for only one problem.Not all the problems can be solved at once , my friend , as they have different origin.This blog is to discuss one primary cause for most of the pathetic human condition in India – caste system.
Is the destruction of Hinduism the panacea for all the ills of India and the world.
Yes , at least of India.
And you used quite strong words like “vanquishing” , “finishing off hindus” etc.Let me state it clear once again that my aggression is towards the blasphemous source of this caste evil , i.e Hinduism , rather than hindus.Hence , I am targeting Hinduism and not any hindu.
Bhikku Richard said
Fallen Monk,
“Let me state it clear once again that my aggression is towards the blasphemous source of this caste evil , i.e Hinduism , rather than hindus.”
I agree Caste is one of the biggest evils of Hindu soceity. Your aim of finishing the ideology of caste is commendable. Instead of attacking just the Caste System why do you want to attack the whole of the Hindu religion. This will start an endless cycle of retribution and violence. I also tend to agree with some people that Hinduism is not just the caste system. Based on my interactions with Hindus and Buddhists and living for many years in India and Thailand I find a lot of similarity betwen Hinduism and Buddhism. Hinduism apart from its evils of caste system also includes many eminent cultural practices and has a common thread with the Buddhist, Jain and other indic religions. You can realize the coexistence of Hinduism and Buddhism in Thailand where these two religions are interwined with each other. To be blind and not see these historical facts is intellectually fallacious.
Also I am not sure if Hindus would so easily succumb and become Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and atheists. India is a populous country with huge numbers of people in different denominations. You will have millions of pople across different caste combinations and groups fighting against each other. As a Buddhist I can see that this confrontational idea would lead to more violence and polarization. The Buddhist leaders has always insisted on Dialogue and reconciliation between the different communities and religions. I am not sure how you can consider Navyana Buddhism as a form of the original teachings of the Buddha especially after it has rationalized violence and hate. I am not again discounting the oppression of the dalits but was it not the Buddha who said ‘the end does not justify the means’.
Rajputana said
Salam maleikum Rashid
“Dalits were the original inhabitants of this land, and some three thousand years ago”
This is lot of poppycock history created by British imperialists. No one believes in the Aryan Invasion theory anymore in any mainstream university as it is found wanting for any valid proof. The DNA studies of different castes have shown that caste is not race. Don’t repeat the same nonsense and no buyers of your poppycock history. Ambedkar has written in his ‘Annhilation of Caste’ that castes are not races (not that whatever Ambedkar writes is true. He was as much part of the imperialist conspiracy of distorting history. He always was a Bristish ass licker)
” the fair-skinned Aryans invaded India from the north-west, subduing the original inhabitants, the Dravidians, and turning them into slaves.”
Fair skinned aryans who are they? In india the caste and colour are in no way related. Ambedkar was much fairer than say Gandhi. Man what an idiot you are. You don’t even know History and write as if you are an authority.
“Now to keep them subjugated, physical force had to be supplemented with ideological and cultural force, and so you had the development of Brahminism and all its scriptures and superstitions.”
Poppy cock history again. Hindus having no central organizing authority and how can they subdue anyone. It was your muslim invaders who subdued people and had a host of slaves. Go get some brain cells moron.
” Cows, snakes and monkeys are worshipped in Hinduism, while the Dalits are treated worse than vermin”
You show again what an extrordinary moron you are. Most of the Dalit gods and dieties are Zoomorphic deities. Hinduism recognises god in all forms and is an amalgamation of all these. The dalit dieties are disrespected in your Islam and even it is quite clear that the worship of your dalit deity is punishable by death in Islam. Go read your Quran before talking about Hinduism. Also read the chrstian bible – they call Dalits who traditionally worship Zoomorphic deities as pagans the fit candidates to be roasted for eternity in their christian hell.
“Ambedkar was aware that the most effective means for Dalit liberation was through converting to Islam. He said that the Dalits could choose from between Sikhism, Christianity or Islam, but added that Islam seemed to offer the Dalits the best deal. ”
Ambedkar actually would have prostituted his followers to any one of these religions. But his personal ambitions came in between. If Ambedkar had converted to Islam he would have become a nobody. He would have changed his name to some Abu Baker or some shit like that and would have been a nobody. If he had converted to christianity he would have again been swallowed up by the bishops and pastors. He was quite a cunning guy and he converted to Buddhism which he didn’t realize is Hinduism itself.
Bethal said
Dalitnation what an article man. You have the great talent of becoming a great writer. You can even get that Hooker (or was it booker) prize. Hey one more thing.
I was always a fan of Sonali Bendre the tall model who couldn’t act. Thanks for reminding me of her. Haven’t heard of her in the media for long so you are wrong that the media “always sided with their jatwallah actress like the maharistrian brahmins Madhuri Dixit and Sonali Bendre.” Thanks for all you guys for wasting your time and writing all that rubbish on this article.
fallen monk said
Rajputana ,
Your own history is completely flawed.I am sure you studied history in the RSS shakas where they teach Ramayana , Mahabharata as a part of History.
I am amazed how you claimed that AIT is false , without any hesitation , and that it is a creation of British imperialists.Do you know how many history books will have to be re-written if you directly throw away AIT as an invalid theory?The history of many Asian countries will have to be completely revised if AIT is proved wrong.
Dalits should ignore such hindus who , although themselves can’t consider dalits as humans or ‘equals’ , but are also against any dalit converting to another religion.
Shiva Kanna said
This post is the most funny I have read since a long time. The discussion has been quite stimulating with the Brahmin Bashing and the counter arguements against it. The hate propoganda against Brahmins is carefully orchestrated by most of these people in the same lines of the anti semetic propoganda in Nazi Germany. People like Kancha Ilaiah, Gail Omvedt and V.T.Rajashekar have clearly taken up this poisonous agenda from their Christian and Islamic pay masters who are past masters in this anti semetic agenda and which they now want to employ this strategy and experiment in India.
This is not a new or innovative tactic and has already been employed by the British and also their slaves like EV Ramasamy Periyar in Tamil Nadu. Periyar was from a rich land owning caste whose main grouse was the patriotism of people like Rajaji. He created unfounded propoganda against the Brahmins in the name of Rationalism. Periyar was the least rational of the people attacking a educated and progressive community by labelling them as irrational and expolitative. The same brahmin community in Tamil Nadu whom he attacked produced some of the greatest thinkers, scientists and rationalists like C.V.Raman, Subramanium Chandrashekar, Srinivas Ramanujan, Vilyanur Ramachandran and many others. Till date asia has not had a scientist of the calibre of C.V.Raman. Now that Brahmins are politically and socially marginalised in Tamil Nadu these criminals operating the Dravidian politics don’t know what else to do. The dalits are also now fighting against these criminals and these dalits were sold that idea that brahmins are exploiters and now without the brahmins they are again exploited. The landowning so called dravidians are the richest people in tamil nadu. The dalits again are not one single caste. The whole thing called dalit is an artificial creation and they are a group of thousands and thousands of castes from all over india. The best way the dalits can be exploited is to teach them hatred against brahmins. In india there is no commonality between dalit communities like for example the mahars in maharashtra or madigas in karnataka or gurars in UP. The mahars fought in the british army and many were fighters, the madigas were oppressed scavengers, the gurjars were highly clannish violent dacoits. This is a small snapshot but if we analys the dalit community there is a story behind every caste. This identity is hidden by the boardroom dalit scholars like VTR, gail omvedt and kancha ilaiah.
It was Gandhi who actually went to the ground and worked with the oppressed people. He identified with the most oppressed people and worked the way they worked. But now the dalits are made to belive that Gandhi is demon incarnate.Ambedkar was had little in common with a oppressed dalit. He was an anglophile who in his day to day life mingled mainly with the upper caste and europeans and loved his daily dose of scotch. The really dispossed dalit in India is used as a pawn in this political game. Most of the so called dalit leaders and their followers are rich people claiming to be dalits and oppressed as they belong to a specific caste grouped under dalits. They use the really oppressed people to gain power. They say caste and class are same because the moment we accept the class divide is there across all castes their game is finished. These boardroom dalits need constant news of atrocities on dalits which they use as fodder in their political games. Any atrocity anywhere is loudly broadcasted as the handiwork of brahmins. In none of these Brahmins would be involved and it is very clear from all the recent atrocities on poor people there were no Brahmins and poor brahmins themselves are discriminated. Instead of working on the issues of poverty, unemployment and social welfare these so called dalits are involved in a hate campaign against the powerless brahmins and in reality the oppression continues as brahmins are not the cause. The sooner the weaker and dispossed sections of the population realizes this the better for them. The christian and islamist organizations whose mouth waters at the mention of dalit would never want them to progress but just add them to their community so that they get the numbers to gain power. They are also answerable to their popes and religious leaders in the agenda for conversion. They act as if the christian and islam is a panacea of dalits. As a matter of fact these people have discriminated dalits more than any one else when they had their muslim and christian rules in India.
happyindianhindu said
Wud like to add here that it is unfortunate that because of 1 periyar and 1 vaiko, many nayakas are viewed with the ‘anti-brahmin’ glasses; when in reality it is the opposite – they remain staunch hindus with most as staunch vaishnavites. The bunch that seeks to make a living out of non-brahminism is shunned by every single naidu that i know.
If dalits want progress, they should stop fighting over religion. And concentrate on making money.
Khawatein Voice said
VT Rajshekar’s “Dalit Voice” – A Charlatan’s Mouthpiece
“Dalit Voice” is a monthly magazine published by a Bangalore based hate-monger VT Rajshekar, an inveterate liar and an Islamic poster boy. VT Rajshekar calls himself dalit (oppressed) and claims to be the modern Buddha [He does not do self praise overtly. He has his own group of pliant cliques whom he peppers with small portion of the doles he receives from mid-East. The same people glorify him in the various issues of the magazine, and the narcist editor publishes all those paid paeans…]
Visit http://www.khawatein.blogspot.com for full blog…
RK said
LOL. What an article! Salman Khan wanted to save Aishwarya Rai from the caste system by marrying her. This is the most hilarious thing I have ever read.
Moreover, the author(?!) does not understand that the classification said in Bhagawad Gita is based on the profession and not by birth. Thus, Drona, being a Brahmin became the martial and warfare teacher to the Kurus.
People, everyone is same. Differentiating them by birth is the greatest sin and curse of mankind.
ROTFL.
shweta said
This is one silly article by one silly person who has nothing better to do. Life is short brother. Enjoy each breath as it comes. You never know how much is left for you. Sheer stupidity to engage oneself in such hatred.
Law of Attraction will let you understand that the more you focus on all these negativities the more you are going into negativity. Please focus your energy in something positive and you will definitely start feeling the goodness, the abundance and the wealth you have been given.
Please try. Don’t give up !
Puli said
Great. Its great to read the minds of people here. The people who have aired their view here know how to use a computer/internet, allowing me to assume that they are educated.
If the thoughts of the educated people are going in this way, i pity for my religion which has so much of complications and discriminations.
If the educated section of the society is thinking like this………i just can’t imagine how the un-educated people or the people in villages think (by villages, i mean backward areas/locations).
There is no end to the discrimination until this caste system continues. Castesim is never going to stop and so as the discrimination.
The day when people stop to add prefixes to their children’s name (example, Anil SHETTY, Manoj GUPTA, Sanjay SHARMA, Rajasekhar REDDY, Vinay AGARWAL……………………….and the list goes on) will be the beginning of the end of castesim. Until then…….protection/reservation of some kind should be extended to the oppressed or the subject of discrimination.
They day when we decide to name your children without a prefix/suffix which symbolises the caste and the day when the application forms in schools and colleges will be printed without the Caste field, we all can proudly demand an end to the Reservaton Policy.
Closing Note: Baba Saheb is an intellectual and one of the all time Greats in the history of India. Please donot compare any other person with him.
Digrantha said
@Puli
If caste has to go then reservations based on caste lines have to go. The reservations only strengthen the castes and in no way will they help in bringing a casteless soceity. Every caste in india including muslims and christians want to be bracked under oppressed caste to claim reservation. So how will casteism go?
My Name is X said
@ Puli
Never seen a more idiotic and stupid person than you. You talk of removing caste and then ask for caste based reservation. Just another means of bringing casteism to soceity and perpetuate to the new generations. The only reason people use caste in application forms in colleges and schools and government jobs is for claiming reservations. Other than that it has no other value. Caste will remain as long as the politicians use it as vote bank. Same with religions and other linguistic divides. The politiians thrive on these divides especially those politicians like who thrive on Caste, religion and linguistic divides. Parties like BSP, BJP, Shiv sena, republican party, dalit sangharshan samithi and many others. These people are the cause of casteism. If not for these people casteism would have disappeared long before.
You say people should stop using prefixes like shetty, gupta, sharma, reddy. Thats actually good in a way. Also pelase ask other religious people to stop using the prefixes on their names like pathan, Khan, Syed, de souza, fernandes, Green, Brown, jain, batliwala and many many many others. Maybe we should ban second names and like malcolm x adopt some alphabet as second name. Lets also start calling ambedkar as Bhim and lets remove ‘rao ambedkar’.
fallen monk said
@Mr X
Caste-based reservations are not an example of casteism , but are a remedy to strengthen the people who are victims of this horrendous system , if not to eradicate the system itself completely.You are demanding that first the caste-based reservations should go and then casteism will also automatically disappear.Don’t you think it is highly absurd , Mr X?If the reservations disappear than this country will become even more backward as some part of it (23% to be precise) would be highly subjugated , harassed and oppressed for no sensible reason , whatsoever , than accident of birth.And when the internal structure of a building itself is so weak , where remains the scope for development?Perhaps , you should ponder on why India is still under-developed despite the fact that this land has all the riches and resources required for a developed nation.In fact , it is not resources and riches alone that decide the status of nation , as Japan is developed even though the land is poor in natural resources.I am sure you might have guess the main factor – social equality and unity.
Without it India will remain a poor country robbed by a few “upper” castes and classes.
Puli said
Hi Mr X,
Thank you for your sensible response.
Infact i appreciate you for the fact that you have actually spent good enough time to read and respond.
Unfortunately, i assume that you have missed these lines written by me.
“They day when we decide to name your children without a prefix/suffix which symbolises the caste and the day when the application forms in schools and colleges will be printed without the Caste field, we all can proudly demand an end to the Reservaton Policy.”
Im trying to say that WE CAN PROUDLY DEMAND FOR AN END TO THE RESERVATION POLICY at the end of the sentence.
You are saying that, “Also pelase ask other religious people to stop using the prefixes on their names like pathan, Khan, Syed, de souza, fernandes, Green, Brown, jain, batliwala………” We, the readers are one amongst this long list and we should initiate things instead of asking other to do or follow. Its not my game or your game. If we feel that its going to help the solution then lets do it together.
And, moreover we are talking about Castesim, lets flush out that feeling from our minds and hearts, then the end-of-reservation policy will fall in place. Infact people will volunteer to come into open competetion when the hearts and minds feel that “Im no more discriminated”.
It takes hours to write your mind and it takes seconds to write your emotions.
I dont mind if people call me an idiot or a stupid as long as people are willing to THINK and contribute thoughts in addressing the issue.
People will feel the intensity of this situation when they actually face it. Metros will not reflect the actual situation……..there are few villages where they still follow 2 glass system in hotels. People are asked about their caste before they are served food and water. When we experience such a kind of discrimination, then we feel the intensity of the problem. Its so easy to say REMOVE RESERVATIONS, we have seen so many people getting killed in Anti-Reservation rallies. If the focus was on Anti-Castesim, we would have seen a different social structure around.
Yeah, u said it right, no political party will survive if they talk about Anti-Reservation. Then, lets do our part, let them survive. Lets not vote for the people who talk about it or who encourage it. All this ……only after the removal of Caste field in the application forms and also from our minds.
Regards,
Puli
Shagun said
Yep I agree. I am pro Reservations for people like Aishwarya and her community. Right way to lift the oppressed people is caste based reservations.
fallen monk said
VTR an Kancha Illaiah are not dalit leaders.They are just vomiting their hatred for Brahmins.They are no different from Brahmins as they play with dalit emotions to achieve their motive.
A true dalit leader is yet to come.
Bharat said
Namaste,
“A person does not become a Brahman by birth, nor does he fail to become a Brahman by birth. A person becomes a Brahman by actions, and he fails to become a Brahman also by actions.” ~Buddha [Sutta-nipata, pg. 650]
In the final section of the Vasettha Sutta (649-652), the Buddha moves from the examination of particular practices to formulate a general theory about the character of human action in the world. The so called fixed biological order, on examination, turns out be a mental abstraction from the relatively stable social practices of individuals sharing the same species nature:
For those who do not know this fact [the naming process]
Wrong views have long underlain their hearts
Not knowing, they declare to us:
“One is a brahmin by birth.”
[But] One is not a brahmin by birth,
Nor by birth is one a non-brahmin
By action (kamma) is one a brahmin.
By action is one a non-brahmin.
For men are farmers by their acts
And by their acts are craftsmen too.
And men are merchants by their acts
And by their acts are servants too.
And men are priests by their acts
And by their acts are rulers too. (650f.)
—–
Please don’t fall in the mind games. Choose your role-model(s) and emulate him/her and become a good human being. You can be a Buddha, by arousing and realising Buddha in you.
Bharat
===
Ranna said
Some folks here have suggested Shramanas were jains. In the ancient times Brahmins, Jains and Buddhists were a highly integrated community. There was lot of intermingling between these communities. The modern day descendents of Shramanas are Brahmins. ‘Sharma’ is a common surname among Brahmins. Vegetarianism evolved from the Shramans who were all ascetics. Not all Brahmins, Jains and Buddhists were Shramanas. However practices like vegetarianism was adopted by the jains and all the other brahmins much later as the economy became more agrarian. Buddhists, including the Buddha were not vegetarian.
Another note, South India was ruled by Jains and Buddhists. There used to be a easy walk in and walk out from the Brahmin, Buddhist and Jain traditions in South India. The adi Kavi (the first poet) of Kannada, Pampa was born a Brahmin but was a Jain in his belief system. He also wrote the Ramayana in Kannada in 2 century CE. In Karnataka there is a history of Jains and Brahmins living together in places like Moodabidri, Karkala and Sravanabelogola. There has been no historical animosity other than theological debates and fights. The same with the Buddhists. We can evidence this in the Badami and Ihole caves where the Saivaites, Vaishnavaites, Buddhists and Jains lived together in separate caves and compartments following their respective faiths. Bodhidharam, was a pallava brahmin prince from tamil nadu and he was instumental in trasmitting the meditation vareity of Buddhism to China and which later morphed as zen in japan.
The Mimasaka and Buddhist Schools were predominanted by people from Brahmin Community. Mandana Mishra was one such famous Mimasaka scholar and leader. He was ‘defeated’ and ‘won over’ in a debate with Shankaracharya and he converted to the advaitha school of vedanta. He changed his name to Sureshwaracharya and headed the Puri Peetha in Orrissa. Mishra is a very common surname among Brahmins in Orissa and North India. There were Buddists whose surname was Mishra in Orissa.
If you just go by the surnames it is quite clear that Brahmins are the descendents of the famous Buddhist clans. Ambedkar’s and Dravidians claim that Dalits were Buddhists and Jain is a historically wrong claim. The dalits have always been pantheistic animists worshipping zoomorphic deities. Infact there is absolutely no proof of any of the thouands of Dalit caste having any links with Buddhism. However it is clear that some modern day Brahmins are the descendents of the Buddhists. It is ridculous for the dalits to bemoan the demise of Buddhism in India as they were no way involved in the Buddhist movement. It was the Brahmin and Kshatriyas who formed the majority of the Buddhist clergy (around 98%). The dalit writers have gone off tangent by pitching Brahmins against Jains/Buddhists and claiming that Dalits are the Descendents of the Buddhists and Jains. If at all any community can claim closeness to the Buddhist tradition in India it is the Brahmins through historical ancestry. Even if they had their theological fights. It is only people who are close who can debate and fight with ideas especially in the ancient indian landscape where there was no communication facilities and the exchange of ideas happened only in close knit societies which even had family and genetic ties between them.
Shambhala said
In this modern age what matters is what practice system and values you adhere to not what your grandfather or great grandfather or some remote ancestor followed.
Poorna said
Ranna thats an important analysis. Based on the surnames of the ancient Buddhists we can make out that all of them converted or got assimilated into the Brahmin fold as many Brahmins have these surnames in the modern age. Not just surnames even popular names from Buddhist lore are preserved through Brahmin names – padma, prajna, paramitha etc. These names were exclusively kept by Brahmins till very recently. Now all hindus have these names.
Ramchandra Shastri said
The first mention of Shramana comes from Taitariya Arnyaka (7th century BC) of the Krishna Yajurveda. śramati tapasyatīti śramana (“a śramana is he who exerts himself and performs religious austerities”). However sramanas came from all castes. There were jain, buddhists and vedics in the shramana tradition. Chanakya the political philosopher was also from the shramana lineage and he was austere in his lifestyle. Buddha studied in the shramana lineage but went out of this as he adopted a middle path as opposed to the extreme austerity of the shramanas. The Jains brought the shramana teachings to the common folks in the ancient cities.
sharmanic said
Hi All,
I am a New Entrant who read all the discussions…To My beloved friends (Dalitnation not included)..When dogs bark there is no necessity of replying them couz we are humans,else there will be a situation for us to reply by barking back..So please close your ears untill these dalit nation ppl bark until they exhaust…If they exceed the threshold limit..any way we will prove them that we wont bark back..but hit with a stone
Seshadri Nagraj said
Hi
I wish to draw the attention of the readers of this wesite to various brahmin websites too especially that of the Tamil Brahmins.
Those are at the other extreme. Does the reality lie somewhere in between or is it skewed towards one of these two sides. Judge for your self.
Who is provoking and who is reacting? Chicken and egg story?
Well what is all this problem about. Caste is the prime cause. Abolish caste which means abolish intra-caste marriage first followed by abolition of caste titles and trace caste identity through both mother and father for banning intra-caste marriages. Finally when all are equal and no caste exists – reservations will stand abolished too. Well then websites on caste may cease to exisit too.
Nobody is going to write anything about anybody because there would be nobody with a single caste identity. Sounds strange? Well caste system sounds as strange to outsiders.
Those at the receiving end might be justified in their anger and venom. Why then equally potent venom from Brahmin websites. Are they opressed too. Have they sufferred over centuries?? Makes me wonder. Who is the victim and who is the oppressor? I am still wondering!!!
Seshadri Nagraj said
Good Dalitnation!!! Contribute your mite to abolition of Caste and rope in the brahmins, who feel aggrieved too. The solution is to abolish caste unitedly with the brahmins who pour thier angst in their websites and are unhappy with the other end of the caste spectrum!!
Just invite them to your efforts at abolishing caste. Find out if they would join you? Try this out with all your innocence!!!!
John said
Actually I think by supporting Salman Khan you are agreeing that beating women is right? I say so because that is what Salman Khan did, he beat up Rai. Shows how stupid you morons are.
avikal said
well well
i am amused to see in what nonsense we as a country have fallen.
truth is how many of us as indians dare to take on brithishers who beat us all with the same stick!!!
they started apartheid and look what they did to native africans…
you say dalits were opperessed…yes that’s true
every human if gets a chance will oppress the lesser being…
i ask how as humans have we fared?
no we have not…
there is no use weeping what the past was?
if dalits wanted they should have revolted in those times.
what is the point of making such a rucus now?
i am born in a brahmin family…
but so what?
one must be a brahmin by work and thinking!!!
birth is just accidental not our will…
i know the person who feels the anger seething within cannot control his feelings but dalitnation think again?!!
IS IT WHAT BUDDHA SAID?
i say if u meditate a little and go deep within yourself then you will know that we all are born shudras and shudra means “trivial”.
isn’t it true that we all waste our life in trivialities and playing in the hands of others?
think and you will know…
your article just speaks of your state of mind….
i will say JUMP IN YOUR OWN BEING AND SEE WHO YOU ARE
if you dont like what i say
then i beg your pardon
and you can brand me another fucking brahmin
but this wont help you…
goodbye
leander said
what a outragsously funny funny and stupid article. I seriously didnt know, people can be so paranoid and hallucinate to such an extreme degree..
May dalit-nation win the Indi-Blogger of the year 2008. AMEN…
maha said
hello……..
friends why are u discussing about aishwarya’s marriage.we really don’t about that whether she mrried a banana tree or not why u r blaming brahmins.
maha said
hai…….
also i’m saying if amitabh dislike his community .then definitely he didn’t do the marriage. this stupid conversation started by ilayya.he dislike unification of dalits – brahmins all over india
maha said
i wrote a mistake in my last post.
please read like this
“also i’m saying if amitabh dislike her community .then definitely he didn’t do the marriage. this stupid conversation started by ilayya.he dislike unification of dalits – brahmins all over india”
Dilip C Mandal said
pl go through Karnataka OBC list. Shetty/chetty/chettiar are OBC and the entry number in central OBC list is 82.
check this URL
http://ncbc.nic.in/backward-classes/karnataka.html
Cool said
Great! Shows how horribly the government functions. Only the rich dalits seem to have benefitted from begging for reservations.
katy said
i, i cume from brahmin femily.. if anyone is trouble ime sorry….
C. L . CHUMBER said
ALL GOVT.JOBS.MUST NOT BE FOR CREAMY LAYER !!!!!
Dear Cool ,
We are very much thankful for your sympathy for poor reserve categories.But you have not sympathy for poor of general category . You and general category people do not demand to apply creamy layer clause to unreserved posts .also .Why double standard ? This is brahminism which is deadly anti reserve category people since the fall of the Indus Valley Civilization .We have recognized the real socio-religious enemy due to like you people.Thanks..
Dilip C Mandal said
“You and general category people do not demand to apply creamy layer clause to unreserved posts .”
well said. food for thought. tks mr chumber.
Manjusha said
To Chumber,
First thing is General Category is not a casteist segment. General category means anyone can compete and there are no sops given and no lesser cut off percentage as in the case of reserved category.
“You and general category people do not demand to apply creamy layer clause to unreserved posts .”
Now let us see what do you mean by this. If you are say applying for a seat in a reserved category for SC/ST or BCs in an engineering or medical college then you have a set of seats that needs to be filled for the total 50% posts irrespective of how many marks they get. Even the cut off percentage for these categories is less. In a general category this is just meaningless as you are competing based on your marks. Just shows how idiotic you are.
To Dilip Mandal,
“well said. food for thought. tks mr chumber.”
Certainly a food for thought for your depraved brain.
h said
Exactly.
Reservations must be for the poor — irrespective of caste.
Rajesh T.R. said
After reading Dalitnation I have come to realize that V.T. Rajashekar is the tallest intellectual in the whole world. He exceeds Ambedkar by miles. I wonder why there is no other sites other than Dalit Voice and Dalit Nation who talk about this great intellectual. Must be a Brahmin and Jewish conspiracy. I heard that one of the Google founder was a Jew and also his professor in Harward was a Tamil Brahmin. Maybe they are controlling the searches in Google.com.
Great you are doing a wonderful job.
Dilip C Mandal said
There is de facto 50% reservation for 15% upper caste people in govt jobs. UPSC is practicing this. pl go through rule 16(2) of UPSC.
Due to this rule, toppers like J Ganeshan’s (rank-4 in gen list of 2006) name finds place only in OBC list. Madras HC had quashed this rule. But supreme court has again ruled in favor of anti reservation forces.
There must be creamy layer criteria for general/upper caste category seats. Why are you people against poor Brahmins?
Dilip C Mandal said
General Category is a casteist segment. Ask UPSC.
Mahesh said
Rajesh,
The Google founders were from Stanford. The Tam-Bram you refer to is Ram Shriram, who was the angel investor and also came up with the name Google instead of the original name Googol.
Therefore according to these guys, Google must be a Brahmin/Jew conspiracy .
Incidentally, the community I was born into is called VishwaBrahmin. Does that make me half racist or what ! ROTFL.
Tamble said
Dalip Mandal,
The best thing is to scrap reservation and allow only the meritorious irrespective of whatever caste, creed, class or religion to gain admission to educational institutions.
The whole policy of reservation is ill conceived, illogical and goes against the basic democratic right of equal oppurtunity.
Dilip C Mandal said
caste is in the DNA of We, The Indians and we all know this. why do not you see the matrimonial columns of the newspapers? lower caste candidates always get less marks in interviews in all the exams. SC/ST/OBC Candidates of AIIMS are demanding that the marks of internal assessment shd be reduced but this is not happening. who is afraid of merit?????
only upper caste people can say that there is no caste discrimination in the society, because they never face this.
Dilip C Mandal said
tamble,
you do not know the meaning of democracy. if it is not inclusive then, it is scrap. you cannot deprive 85% of the population of all opportunities and call this system democracy. all democracies practice some form of affermative action.
the opposition of elites to reservation does not necessarily stem from caste chauvinism but is result of much deeper anti-poor sentiments. It can be simply understood in terms of reluctance of “haves” to share there pie with “have nots”.
no upper caste elit supports mayawati when she said that there shd be 10% reservation for the poors of upper caste.
they conjure up thousand different excuses to explain their anti-reservation stand, the most common being the bogey of merit. is merit not outcome of opportunity plus ability, or only ability defines merit.
would an Einstein born in poor marginalized family of rural India be able to attain his merit?
Tamble said
Dilip Mandal,
“lower caste candidates always get less marks in interviews in all the exams.
SC/ST/OBC Candidates of AIIMS are demanding that the marks of internal assessment shd be reduced but this is not happening. who is afraid of merit????? ”
If this is true the problem here is discrimination. That can end not by lowering the cut off marks and percentage for the SC/ST/OBC but ending discrimination. By lowering the cut off percentage of admission for some castes/groups of people you are starting discrimination all over again.
The problem is to bringing stricter and objective laws not reservation. Why should say the children of Laloo yadav or Jagajivan ram have resrvation. Your reasoning is completely flawed.
“would an Einstein born in poor marginalized family of rural India be able to attain his merit?”
An baby with a potential of einstien will certainly have merit and get through in the general category. The problem here is poverty – provide economic sops to the poor.
Unfortunately reservation does not reach the poor as they drop of school at a very young age. The votaries of reservation are the rich SC/BC/OBCs and these people just have it too easy and trample upon the rights of others. The petty bourguieus dalit politicians of course would support reservation as it is just a free ride for the rich among dalits.
Sundaram said
As a tamilian and unfortunately belonging to a Brahmin caste in TN i had got 94 percent in my pre univesity undergraduate studies. It became impossible for me to get into medicine, my first love. In Tamil nadu the general category is hardly 10 to 15 percent. If a so called upper caste (I am a Tamil Iyengar) has to get into medicine he has to score nothing less than 98% and also a much higher ranking in the entrance test. I had to finally settle for an engineering seat in an REC in far off Punjab. My class mates and some of best friends got into medicine and engineering so easily in Chennai just by the virtue of the fact that they were bracketed under the lower caste. A close friend of mine from the Vanniyar caste(some are oBC/ some SC) got 62% and also a seat in the madras medical college under some reserved category. The friend was son of a textile tycoon whose father’s company had a turnover of 150 crores (at that time in 1991). Many other gounder, chettair, sc and OBC friends of mine also came from rich backgrounds and owned vast tracts of land. As a matter of fact I realised the castes of these people only during the time of college admissions. Wheras I came from an impoverished family, my father had died when I was 4 years old leaving my mother to take care of my sister and me. She did struggle to get us educated by doing odd jobs like cooking and selling agarbhatthis. All our lives we were at the mercy of moneylenders who were from an OBC caste (their caste I came to know much later after my indoctrination into the modern Indian caste pyramid of Periyyar, ambedkar and mandal). I could finish my education through these loans. No national bank would give me loans as we had no property or deposits.
Thankfully I was able to complete my engineering with 88% overall score and thankfully because of the economic liberalization and privatization I could get a job in a private firm. I have now worked for 12 years in the industry on an average of 12 – 18 hours a day. Made a mark in this place where there is no caste system and contributed immnsely to the companies i worked with. I have visited more than 20 countries. Stayed in 4 countries. Have done my higher studies from an american university while working. Thankfully i was saved from the poisonous clutches of reservation and the unjust government policies through private sector through extraordinary hardword and industry. Everyday I hope and pray that more and more Government functions get privatised in India. I am sure not many so called upper caste in Tamil Nadu will be as lucky as me or they have the strength to bear and overcome the injustice.
For my children and the new generation, everyday I pray and hope for the following:
1.Day by Day government becomes inefficinet and corrupt. We see the signs of it already by the corrupt BCs/SCs/OBCs. They have got theeir jobs without any struggle. Havent ever seen a government official work for more than 8 – 10 hours. That is the quantity of time , the less talked about the quality the better. But I wish it crumbles due to this inefficiency.
2. More and more government functions become privatized. The private sector reservation can never take into affect because of the very nature of private capital and ownership. It is just not possible except in some chamcha-lala companies.
3. Education beciomes more and more privatized due to influx of private sector / foreign universities.
4. Our Indian colleges like IITs / IIMs / RECs, Government owned medical colleges and other colleges gets discredited due to inefficiency and lack of talent and in its place, the universities owned and funded by private sector sponsors become recognized.
5. eLearning becomes more and more pervalent and this should allow easy access to knowledge and education.
6. Bank loans become easily available to the meritorious irrespective of caste as Merit and knowledge can act as sureity.
7. The private sector lobbies become stronger and influence the receidual government functions (Administration, police, revenue and other which cannot be privatized). We can see this happening already so there is lot of hope.
8. The castes become more seggregated and each caste asserts its identity as Mr V.T. Rajashekar has propounded. They the so called Dalit and OBC factions disappear as they are artificial constructs. The dalits consists of some thousands of caste with no commonality between them. There is nothing in common between a chamar and mahar or a gurjar. Chamars were cobblers, mahars were sychophants of the british and worked in the british army and gurjars were violent dacoits. All those pipe dreams of BSP and mayavathis will soon turn out to be illusory. Thats why VTRs theories are good. I sometimes feel he is a disguised upper caste guy out to beat the petty bourguios dalit politicians in their own game. In fact no dalit other than the dalit activistis I have met like to call themselves Dalit. Even Navayana Buddhists invest a lot of time in pujas. They like to call themselves by their caste name.
I am not saying that the private sector capitalistsw are angels. They are as corrupt as anyone else. But they are all driven by the profit motive unlike the lotus eating corrupt government institutes and politicians. This profit centerdness and their love for more revenue and profits will make them overlook caste, creed and color and look for efficency and merit. Therein lies the emancipation of poor students.
I was drawn to communism many times and always thought that they were the people who would uplift the working class proletariat. But the capitalist bourgouies have now roped in the petty bourgious dalit politicains like Mayavathis, Karunanidhi and mulayams and many others. I am sure none of these petty bourguious politicains like Mayavathi are concerned about the poor and suffering masses (the proletariat). They are just standing on caste identity to get the bougious among their castes to come to power. So I have now pegged my hope on the capitalists as it works. Communism mixed with caste can be horrible for poor families. Their social engineering would be a death knell for the upper caste poor. Thats why I have started liking the tirade of V.T.Rajashekar and the dalit intellectuals including ambedkar who have completely divorced marxism from their lives and thrive on caste. This will be a big rope and they would finally hang themselves with it.
C. L . CHUMBER said
DEPRAVED BRAINS WORSHIP RAPIST, RACIST & FASCIST SO CALLED GODS !!!!!
Dear viewers ,
I wrote a writing ( May 18,2008 @ 7.18 pm ) under the title ” All govt. jobs must not be for creamy layer .” Mr.Dalip C.Mandal ( May 20,2008 @8.25 am )appreciated my views ” you and general category people do not demand to apply creamy layer clause to unreserved posts also.” Mr. Mandal reproduced this line and wrote in appreciation, “well said food for thought tks mr. chumber .” What was wrong in my writing and in appreciation by Mr.Dalip. C. Mandal ?
Mr./Mrs./Miss Manjusha on May 20,2008 @ 9.53 am said ,” certainly a food for thought for YOUR DEPRAVED BRAINS .” Whose brain is depraved ?
The depraved brains created caste/varna system ! The depraved brains worship the rapist , racist and fascist so called Gods !! The depraved brains are anti-poor of general category !!! The depraved brains demands only creamy layer clause for reserve categories.!!! We Having excellent brains demand that the creamy layer must be imposed on all govt,/semi-govt. jobs so that the poor Indians may get jobs to develop their families.!!!!! The creamy clause may go to pvt. jobs for handsome perks !!!!!! ONE DAY THIS WILL BE THE VOICE OF THE PEOPLE WHICH THE GOVTS. MUST HAVE TO IMPLEMENT BY IGNORING THE DEPRAVED BRAINS !!!!!!! Thanks.
Manjusha said
Mr Chumber,
As a person so involved in deep Identity politics you have no clue what you are talking about.
When I am addressing a person I am not addresing his caste or beleifs like you. I am addressing their views that they have told and these illogical views are coming from a depraved brain.
You are simply using adhominem arguments to divert the attention out of your illogical arguments.
“The depraved brains created caste/varna system ! The depraved brains worship the rapist , racist and fascist so called Gods ”
Now how do you prove that I created Caste/Varna. Please give me proof.
Please prove to me that I worship dome racist or facist god. I am an atheist for your kind information.
Again I would repeat to you (not your caste or whatever) but just you based on your idiotic rantings in this site – GET SOME BRAIN CELLS – YOU MORON.
Comorade Kranthi said
Sundaram,
Your story is very inspiring and congragulate for whatever you have acheived in your life despite all the hardships you have been meted out by an unjust system. But I think you have got mixed up on the communist stuff.
Communism is about class struggle between the Proletariat and Bourgeous. The proletariat are the working class the economically dispossed irrespective of whatever caste, religion or creed. The dalit thinkers right from Ambedkar and periyar to VT Rajashekar opposed communism not because they love the dispossed people but just because their caste theory will fall apart. Also we should understand that Caste is not Class. A person like Periyar came from an extremely rich family and lived like a playboy till he was sixty. Obviously he couldnt have talked about communism as his supporters were all capitalists/landowning bourgeous. Ambedkar could not accept communism because his support was again from the british colonial capitalists. He got his support base from them and used the Dalits of all classes (not just the poor) as his political weapon. In modern India it is this rich and fuedal so called Dalits and OBCs who are land owners who play this game of caste and vote bank politics. Even they have joined hands with the oppressive Brahmins and other upper caste capitalist bourgeous. Remember how Mulayam singh yadav was the darling of all these dalits and OBCs a few years ago. Now he is seen with ambanis and subroto roys. The same will be with Mayavathi. There is no difference between a Mayavathi and a Jayalalitha. Both are equally corrupt. Only thing is mayavathi claims that she comes from an oppressed caste. It is just a matter of time when these people like BSP disintegrates as they are play the Bougeous identity politics. They will make their money and pack up for a new pack of wolves to come in and loot. THe biggest losers are the poor people who are the dalits, the real dalits.
So it is not about economics at all. Just identity politics. The essense of Communism/ Marxism is completely lost. Marx had said ‘Religion is the opium of the masses.’ but has he seen india he would have said ‘caste is the opium of the masses’. The modern day dalit movement if nothing else will only result in more casteism.
Proudtobebrahmin said
Ha,ha,ha. A perfect example, in my opinion, of what an incendiary post looks like!! Aishwarya married Abhishek because both of them happen to be successful and famous actors in their own right and not because of some conspiracy theory. Dear author, at least inject some objectivity into it to make it believable next time!
C.L.CHUMBER said
MANJUSHA REFRAIN FROM DOME RAPIST,RACIST & FASCIST GODS !!!!!
Respected Manjusha ,
First of all, I congratulate on your refraining from the dome rapist , racist and fascist Gods ! You are the first person who denounced these so called Gods by calling them as DOME ( 23 May, 2008 @ 6.00 am ).in the Dalit-nation blog ! Thanks. Wish you all good luck . Thanks .
Karthikeyan said
Read the pattern in any of the posts made by ‘dalitnation’. Every single post contains lines as “brahmins are rediculing dalits”, “brahmins are jelous of dalits”, and even “brahmins are afraid of enlightened dalits”. Also “brahmins believe only what they want to believe”. He’s repeating this like mantra and deeply writing it in his veins and is pushing in the brains of the masses.
Also he shows no respect to people just because they are brahmins. Maha Vishnu is called in thousand names. But the names dalitnation and C.L.Chumber with which they refer Maha Vishnu is totally uncultured. I don’t think this is a true anger of an oppressed class. This is a propoganda with vested interests in mind. Om Namo Narayanah.
Dilip C Mandal said
In IIM-A, one has to spend Rs 0.55 million every year as tuition fee and income limit for OBC student’ family is Rs 0.25 million. What an irony? What a farce? What a judgment from Supreme Court? No wonder that people are demanding reservation/RTI in judiciary.
Lets ask govt to care for poor of all caste. Creamy layer criteria shd be for every one, including general seats.
you upper caste people do not care for upper caste poor. Do you?
C,L.CHUMBER said
GOVT. MUST BAN ON UNCULTURED BRAHMINS` STILL WORSHIPING AND
GLORIFYING DOME RAPIST,RACIST & FASCIST SO CALLED GODS !!!!!
Dear Karthikeyan ,
You are welcome to this open discussion.First of all,we disscus about your good self`s name.Shiv ji and Gauri`s elder son wasKarthikeyan .In north India,he is known as Kartik.Please you tell us what is the significance of his brother Ganasha that he is worshipped as God and why is discarded Kartik by the vaidik aryans ? Why Shiva beheaded Ganesha ? What are the diameters of a man and of a elephant necks.Ganesh is unnatural born person having unnatural head and a mouse as unnatural mode of transportation.Why Gauri disfavoured Kartik and favoured Ganesh in the race of installation for the seat of spiritual authority ? I think that an inefficient,recommendatory and unnatural person is worshiped as Ganesha God .Can a brahimin meritorious doctor plant a head of elephant on man`s neck in the operation theatre ? The brahmin intellectuals invented the proverb ” shri Ganesh.” which means to start a work.There is wrong start of brahmins.We demand the intellectuals to open the case of spirtual authority of Ganesha and kartik so that our bent of mind may be accordingly.
You wrote,” I do not think that is not a true anger of an opperresd class.This a propoganda with vested interesrs in mind.” Only the bearer knows where the shoe pinches.” RSS projects CHHATARPATI SHIVA JI as HINDU HERO.The brahmins of Maharashtra refused to place TILAK on his forehead at the time of his coronation.A Ghag Bhatt brahmin of Varanasi took Rs. one crore as bribe to place just a tilak on Shiva ji`s forehead.The brahmin community boycotted Pt. Ghag Bhatt.He had to write a book to gave clarification that he had not placed tilak on Shiva ji`s forehead by his hand`s thumb.He wrote that he placed tilak by his foot`s thumb.This means that the entire brahmin community was anti a shudra Shiva ji`s coronation as a king.This means also that they were pro Aurangzeb Muslim king.How did the brahmin peshwas of Shiva ji dethroned his descendat and crushed his head by the elephant`s foot.. Had ever past and modern brahmins condemned these fascist acts ? Why not ? What do you mean by a true anger ? Do you mean bloodsheds ?
Once RSS worker told me that revolution would not come in India. I replied that your scriptures advised you to rape chamar and kumhar women to get the benefit of Allahabad ( Paryag ) and Varanasi pilgrimage.Now a Chamar caste Ms Mayawati CM of your cow belt tied a wrist band on her brahmin BJP ministers.Now these brahmins had to consider a Chama caste lady as their sister ! IS THIS NOT A SOCIO- RELIGIOUS NON-VIOLENT REVOLUTION ? That RSS worker is no more .ONE DAY GOVT. WILL BAN ON UNCULTURED BRAHMIN`S WORSHIPING AND GLORIFYING DOME RAPIST.RACIST AND FASCIST SO CALLED GODS AS THE GOVT.BANNED UNTOUCHABILITY CREATED BY THE UNCULTURED BRAHMINS.THESE WRITINGS WILL BE FOUNDATION STONE ! Thanks.
Dilip C Mandal said
hi mr h/respected manjushaji (May 20, 2008 @ 10:00 am/May 23, 2008 @ 6:00 am )
oft-repeated counteractions of anti-reservationist, is that only the well off sections of reserved category corners all the benefits. it is a glaring truth that even after 60 yrs of reservation policy being in place only 5 % of target population has benefited. if one were to remove so called “better off” individuals also then who would be left to benefit from it?
does an uneducated laborer’s barely literate son would make it to institute like IIMs, IIT, AIIMS specially given the minimum qualifying percentage?
reservation was never meant as a tool for individual’s emancipation but rather of whole marginalized population.
Ishveshwariah said
To Mandal,
The really meretorious should get the seat. If only 5% are filled then there is a strong reason why the reservation policy has failed and needs to be scrapped. If the same 5% rich people avail of reservation what is the point.
To Sundarm,
I think some of the points you made will come into effect in the coming years. Why should education be controlled by the government. Why should they ration it to people based on caste. Lets hope the modern elearning and private sector universtites and colleges get their acts together and discredit the government bodies sooner. I can also see this happening already and just wish it godspeed.
Dilip C Mandal said
Ishveshwariah,
what is merit without opportunities? imagine yourself as a dalit living in a poor remote village and you will understand the importance of affirmative action. almost all democratic countries in the world practice affirmative action for the deprived section of the society.
can you imagine that in haryana villages, dalit girls are asked to clean the floor of the classroom. They have to come early to school. and this is 21st century INDIA! can your sister excel in such scenario? if yes, then there is no need for reservation in India.
Saripu said
Why are people talking against Brahmins in thsi site. It seems to me it comes from a deep seated inferiority complex.
Ishweshwariah said
To Dilip Mandal
You are trying to justify the rich people of Dalit caste to get the sops from the government by quoting some very unjust acts on poor people. If dalit girls are asked to clean floors in the classroom that is extremely inhuman and that issue should be dealt as per the legal guidelines. How is this related to the reservation in AIMS or engineering orand medical colleges. You are mixing things up just to justify why some people (quite rich and socially mobile by many standards ) who are bracketed as dalits should avail of unncessary reservations. The real problem is elsewhere which you fail to see.
Dilip C Mandal said
Ishweshwariah,
The select elite of this country has appropriated the resources of India since time immemorial and they are reluctant to let go of their privilege. Indian state has been a failure as far as upliftment of poor and disadvantaged section of society is concerned. The disparity has only widened since independence.
Reservation was only one of the mechanism of integration and upliftment of historically disadvantaged section. As caste was the basic mechanisms of subjugation in India, it was adopted as the criterion for identifying sections requiring special safeguards. Moreover in absence of other easily identifiable markers it became the sole identifying criterion
Karthikeyan said
Chumber Ji, you have good grasp of Hindu scriptures. Then why is it difficult for you to understand that Lord Ganesha’s murthy is to be taken phylosophically rather than ridiculing it? And Ganesha, not Karthik, is the eldest son of Shiva and Parvathi Devi. Shiva beheading Ganesha, then Ganesha getting elephant head, all have phylosophical significance and a message to the world. This is called ‘Thiruvilaiyaadal’ in Tamil. And the significance of Ganesha is, he’s the remover of obstacles. Ganesha was born to free the worlds from the evil deeds of Mooshikasura, whom Ganesha doesn’t kill but conquers. Then Mooshikasura gets the honour of being Lord Ganesha’s vehicle.
It is ridiculous to say that a Brahmin accepted RUPEES one crore to put tilak on Chatrapathi Shivaji. Which RBI governor had signed the rupee notes he had recieved? Shivaji’s period was the age of kingdoms, and the currency was not standard. They were in the form of copper coins, silver coins or gold coins or other metal coins. One crore rupees!! Chanceless story!!
It is clear from your comment that YOU said to the RSS worker that Hindu scriptures advised Hindus to rape some people. All scriptures, Manu-smruthi, the four Vedas etc were heard by sages by their spiritual ears and where passed down to us in the form of Shruthi and Smrithi. Nobody composed it, and so there is no room for existence of any evil in those scriptures, which can arise only in the minds of uneducated mortals.
Karthikeyan said
Chumber Ji, I haven’t read the book you have mentioned in the comment. But I know a bit of Kabir Das’s life. Kabir Das had a tough time in Varanasi because his behavior was not in sync with the day-to-day life style of that place. He had to reply to the people around him who questioned him and ridiculed him for his unacceptable behaviour. He used books for that. Thats all. Kabir Das was disciple of Ramanandh, a Brahmin. So it is not possible that he condemns all Brahmins. He had developed his own phylosophies, inspired by many Guru’s, including Brahmin Guru’s. He finds that the world around him is not in sync with his philosophies. Because of this differences, the surroundings questioned him, and he questioned the surroundings. It was brahmins around him, so Brahmins were the victim. If it were others, they would be. He used his poems to just counter argue Brahmins and to spread his new philosophies and to revive the people around him from their ignorance. So it is not appropriate to treat his books and teachings as against entire Brahmin community.
Untouchability was banned on the same ground as Zamindari system was banned. Both were evil, so they were banned. So are child marriage, sati system etc. We have constitutional right to follow any religion and hence the right to worship the God’s of that religion. Infact our country is respected in the international forums only because of our diverse culture, and yet unity, acceptance, tolerance and fraternity among different people. We, as fellow citizens, have the unwritten duty to respect each others ideology’s without contempt. And this Brahmins had always been doing. You should also treat Brahmins with the same courtesy.
Karthikeyan said
Also you are telling,
1. If you worship Vishnu, you are uncultured.
2. If you worship Vishnu, Government will punish you.
3. Government will punish you if you worship Vishnu.
What are you trying to do? Are you trying to terrorise Brahmins by means of threat and spoil their great culture? This might work for other unlearned mobs, not on learned Brahmins.
Also you are trying to build hatred between Chamars and Brahmins by telling that Brahmins are here to insult the others’ women? Do you think anybody will stop and patiently ask the Brahmins ‘is it true?’ and try to understand the truth? Won’t they instantly get enraged with the statement and engage in violence? Is this what you want? Else why would you put such a baseless statement.
C,L.CHUMBER said
SLAVES CAN NOT LOVE THEIR MASTERS !!!!!
Respected Karthikeyan,
I respect you from the core of my heart but I also hate you equally when you defends the dome rapist,racist and fascist so called Gods.Dr.Ambawdekar wrote to create immense sharpness between love and hate in your views and actions to mark sharp impressions ! Why do the brahmins hate the STs,SCs,OBCs and religious minorities ? Which Hindu scripture preach to love these people.? Do you lit the fire the scriptures which advocate the raping women ? We will tell the names.of the scriptures If you will not dare to burn ,we will dare to burn these so called scriptures.This is up to you to be a Voltaire or a” PONGA PANDIT ” !
You wrote,” We have the right to follow any religion and hence the right to worship”.( May28,2008 @ 8.55pm ).Do you have the constitutional and ethical right to worship a rapist,racist and fascist.? The untouchability was also a Hindu religious practice which the constitution banned. I do not terrorise the brahmins by demanding the ban on TERRORIST GODS .I am a clear hearted ,true-God fearing and law abiding citizen of the universe.I have already cleared that I neither hate brahmins nor Hinduism.I deadly hate their missdeeds .I have also cleared that I equally hate those who do not retaliate to get their rights as human beings.
The book under reference is ” Kabir-selected couplets from the sakhi in transversion” by Dr.Mohan Singh Karki ( M/S Motilal BanarsidassPublishers Pvt.Ltd.,41,U.A. Bungalow Road,Jawahar Nagar,New Delhi-110007,2001AD.).Swami Ramanand was not guru of Adi-Guru Kabir.If you claim then why not you follow Kabir..In the Guru Granth Sahib ( Kartarpuri Birh -copy compiled by Guru Arjun Dev) ,Guru Kabir said ,” Rama is my father-in-law and I am His son-in-law.The person who worship Rama ,is a dog and will go to the hell.” Are you a follower of Rama or Kabir ? I am a follower of Adi-Guru Kabir who hates the brahmins and Hinduism .My statements are not baseless, baseless are your logics which may be challenged in the court. SLAVES CAN NOT LOVE THEIR MASTERS.THANKS
Philip John said
i am an African American.All I wanna say is this that Brahman and other Hindu cast faggots,racist,punk bastards and Aryan son of bitches can try their best to brainwash and attack us Africans(blacks),they will never be able to succeed in their infidel beliefs and racist ideology.
C,L.CHUMBER said
JUDICIOUS MINDS CAN SOLVE THE INDIAN PROBLEMS !!!!!
Dear Karthikeyan ,
Your good self wrote ( May 28,2008 @ 8.23 pm ) as under :-
” it is ridiculous to say that a Brahmin accepted RUPEES one crore to put tilak on Chatrapathi Shivaji. Which RBI governor had signed the rupee notes he had recieved? Shivaji’s period was the age of kingdoms, and the currency was not standard. They were in the form of copper coins, silver coins or gold coins or other metal coins. One crore rupees!! Chanceless story!! ”
Dear Karthikeyan ! this is historical fact .Pt. Gagh Bhatt received one crore currency of that times.You may read historical books on Shiva ji to confirm it.This is true that the brahmins were against the shudra king Shiva ji because he was an ardent follower of a shudra Sant Tuka Ram who was agaist brahminism..They finished his dynasity and established the Peshwa ( Brahmins ) kingdom by crushing the head of his last predecessor with the foot of an elephant ! In Pune ,the capital of the Peshwas , the untouchables wrer banned to enter.Is it not true ? A brahmin of Pune killed the third class ( Varna ) Hindu rashtarpita of India. Why did they( brahmins ) kill a non-violent prominent person ?
Mr. Karthikeyan , please have judicious mind to solve the Indian problems .Please do not defend the misdeeds of any person or community.
happyhindu said
Thankyou Karthikeyan. Your writing is bang on target and much admired.
Chumber,
Kabirdas was a kriya yogi, and part of hinduism, not opposed to it. Stop spreading baseless lies.
I worship Vishnu. Even worse for you, i am a Hari dasi and a servant of Shriman Narayana. Please complain to the government. I want to see in what way they punish me.
hh said
Your abandam lies will not work online. Neither will they work offline soon.
C,L.CHUMBER said
GOVT.WILL PUNISH IF MR.HAPPY HINDU @ LAVNYA WILL RAPE A LADY LIKE RAPIST VISHNU WHO RAPED PIOUS ADI-MATA VARINDA @ TULSI !!!!!
Dear Happy Hindu @ Lavnya ji ,
Your goodself continue to glorify a rapist , racist and fascist as God.You wrote (June 1, 2008 @ 1:58 pm ) as under :-
” I worship Vishnu. Even worse for you, i am a Hari dasi and a servant of Shriman Narayana. Please complain to the government. I want to see in what way they punish me.” I think you have lost patience and is challenging the constitution.The constitution allows you religious freedom but not to glorify and worship the rapist ,racist and fascist person living or dead .You may consult your advocate .The govt. will punish you according to the law of the land if you rape a lady as your God Vishnu raped pioos Mata Varinda !
Dear Happy Hindu ! you threatened me in writing in your email :-
” Your abandam lies will not work online. Neither will they work offline soon.”
You have no logic .Please refrain from dialogue and worship your GODS .Thanks .
hh said
People everywhere are becoming more and more communicative and well-informed. Dunno why you see this as threatening.
Anyways, i agree with you Chumber. Its time to move on.
Kavish Tamble said
Mr V.T. Rajashekar has denounced Dalit Nation in the latest issue of Dalit Voice. He has claimed that Dalit Voice and Dalit Nation has no relationship. Editor please clarify.
Read for yourself:
http://www.dalitvoice.org/Templates/june2008/reports.htm
—————————————————————-
Dr. Kavish Tamble, 1192-E Calavares Blvd, Milpitas, CA-955035, USA: I am a Dalit from Pune, working in California since ten years and an avid reader of Dalit voice. I admire your dedication to raise the consciousness of Dalits and awareness of Dalit issues to the world diaspora. Recently I saw a website claiming to be inspired by you and they have been writing articles imitating Dalit Voice. It seems to me that these sites are run by upper caste people as most of the people abuse Dalits in their comments. There are many Dalit folks in CA who actually want to know if this site has any relationship to Dalit Voice. The URL of this blog is:
http://dalitnation.wordpress.com/
In one the articles the editor of this blog has claimed that he has met you in Oxford University in UK. Is this true?
http://dalitnation.wordpress.com/2007/12/14/aishwarya-rai-a-victim-of-brahmin-conspiracy/
I will appreciate if you can respond to this as I feel that there is something wrong and Dalits might get misguided by this ‘Dalit Nation’. The kind momentum you have built up in raising the consciousness is proving to be a big hurdle for the manuwadis hence all these snoopers like Dalitnation. I have read many books published by your Dalit Sahitya Akademy. I stay in the West Coast of US and working as anesthesiologist.
V.T. Rajashekar
“Dalitnation” is not ours and we have no connection. Our enemies as rulers of India are powerful snoopers. Being a micro-minority they naturally feel threatened. That is why they are awake all the 24 hours to watch any danger coming from any direction to their very existence. Manuwadis are deeply worried about the danger. So they are always an alert community. I was arrested four times, once jailed in Chandigarh. Passport impounded for 20 years, two attempts on life. All because of fighting them. They killed even their own “Father of the Nation”. But our people are sleeping. Even well placed are not supporting us. Dr. Ambedkar himself died a sad man —
Karthikeyan said
Chumber Ji, I respect you too very much, and am concerned that you hate me for being a socially responsible follower. What have Brahmins done against all those categories you mentioned above? (BCs, OBCs, STs, Minorities etc.)? Is competing publicly for various jobs and posts against them? If our Vedas and Smriti’s are doing wrong by categorising people as Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras, then what is the constitution doing by categorising people as BCs, OBCs etc? Who will dare to burn the constitution? You might dare to burn our scriptures because we will treat that as a childish act and forgive you. But government would not do the same if you burn the constitution! I give as much respect to our scriptures as I would to the constitution. And with same respect I will treat Chumber-Smriti too! Neither the constitution nor the scriptures were written to crush anybody. They are written for good governance of society and people. I expect the same quality from Chumber-Smriti too. I think, I’m not making a mistake if I take the texts from all of your posts as a gist of Chumber-Smriti. Do you, as an elder and responsible citizen, think that it will qualify as a book which will inspire and guide a harmonious life? I think it is a big NO! These qualities are there in Vedas. I totally do not understand why its meaning is being misrepresented at various forums. You say you are not angry with Brahmins or Hindus. Then on whom are you with? With Maha Vishnu? There are lots of Purana’s where purushottam Maha Vishnu had exterminated numerous rapists, pascists and tyrants. And you call him with those abusive names! Or are you angry with Maryadha Purushotham, Eka pathni vratha Shree Ram? Because he gave up maatha Sita? He did it to value the words of one of shudras! And isn’t that what you exactly want! As much right the constitution gives us to worship any God, it gives us right not to worship any God too. And government is not competent authority to recognise anybody as God. It is people who choose in which for they wish to see God. Some see him as Maha Vishnu, and some as Buddha, some as Zeus, and some even in the form of father and mother! And God doesn’t need government’s approval or licence to show his mercy! Blessed are those who can recognise God in every form. It is folly to consider one form of God to be superior or inferior, or for that matter, even different from another form. We should learn and practice to respect each others’ view points.
Karthikeyan said
Happy Hindu, we shall not argue or fight here. Just explain every question and complain thrown on us. It is unwise to challenge anybody here because what the opponent wants is the destruction of our peace of mind. And it doesn’t matter to them whether they win or not! We win only as long as we stay calm. You challenged Chumber Ji thus “complain against me, let me see how government punishes me”. Even if the whole parliament votes in your favour and the supreme court declares you as innocent, Chumber Ji still wins because he has destroyed your peace of mind! To some, to win a battle is victory. To some, just pulling some quite person into battle is victory! Haven’t you seen some people unnecessarily ring the calling bell and hide? Haven’t you seen some people blowing horns repeatedly, when it is absolutely unnecessary and pointless? Haven’t you seen some people scratching the paints of a parked car? Do you think they are our enemies? No, they are just disturbances. Only such things is happening on Brahmins and our scriptures. We should not fight them, we should teach them to grow up from this kiddish behaviour. And thanks for your comments on my points
Sorry for this personal question, do not mind or respond to it if you don’t want to. Is your name Lavanya? Are you Tamil?
hh said
Kartikeyan,
Thanks. True we are not supposed to get disturbed. And wish i didn’t. Cannot help feeling disturbed with how things are. They say when a man needs food and water, you cannot talk to him about god, religion, meditation and stuff that is nonsense to him. Am not sure i shd have been doing all this at all — i don’t feel right.
on the astral plane we are neither names, languages, genders, nationalities, boundries, faces, relationships, etc…hope you don’t mind, names and identities don’t matter..
C,L.CHUMBER said
WHY WILL I BURN THE INDIAN CONSTITUTION ? ? ? ? ?
Dear karthikeyen ,
You claimed to be ” a socialy responsible follower.” You are neither social nor resposible .You are manuwadi-socialist and your resposobility is to defend as well as worship the rapist,racist and fascist as Gods .We will burn your un-constitutional scriptures and will publish the humanistic literature in varnacular languages . Will you dare to distribute the manu-smirity in the masses as the Christians distribute tbe Bible free of cost ? Every one likes the fragrance and no one likes the maldour !
You wrote ( June 5, 2008 @ 7:26 pm) as below : –
” I give as much respect to our scriptures as I would to the constitution. And with same respect I will treat Chumber-Smriti too! Neither the constitution nor the scriptures were written to crush anybody. They are written for good governance of society and people. I expect the same quality from Chumber-Smriti too. I think, I’m not making a mistake if I take the texts from all of your posts as a gist of Chumber-Smriti. Do you, as an elder and responsible citizen, think that it will qualify as a book which will inspire and guide a harmonious life? I think it is a big NO ”
You can not mantain double standard in a democratic society .The Indian constitution and your scriptures are north pole and south pole.The Indian constitution was drafted and implemented to defuse your scriptures`varna/caste system spirit. I regard the Indian costitution drafted by Dr.Ambawdekar.Why will I burn the constitution ? As far concerned with the CHUMBER-SMRITY,there will not be added even a single word except my editorial.I will only change the gradation and degradation of Manu-Smirity from Brahmin,Kshattry,Vaish,Shudar to Shudra,Vaish,Kshattry and Brahmin in my CHUMBER-SMIRTY to realize the Brahmins,” SOCHO KABHI AISA HO TO KYA HO ? ” !!!!!
You continued to wrrote,”He (Rama banished Sita-chumber)did it to value the words of one of shudras! And isn’t that what you exactly want! As much right the constitution gives us to worship any God, it gives us right not .” Rama killed Shudra saint Shambuk and banished his wife Sita .Rama did not gave chances to both to gave clarifications .There was no appeal , advocate and reasoning in Ram-rajya .The Ram-rajya was a Manu-rajya in practice ! Ram and Sita both suicided .( pl read the uttra-kand of Valmiki ramayna).
Mr. Karthykeyen ! you are not authorised to worship a rapist/racist/fascist as God.You may consult your advocate.You wrote,” We should learn and practice to respect each others’ view points.” The views must be rational based on equality,liberty and fraternity ! THANKS.
Karthikeyan said
I’m not any this-ist or that-ist Chumber Ji. Who am I to defend God. My prayers to God will defend me and keep me away from bad habits, bad company and inspire me lead a disciplined life. The point is as simple as this. Don’t give me any such title, I might not deserve one. Even my parents never asked me to “read Bhagvat Gita”, “read Valmiki Ramayana” or “read Veda”. You are asking me to do. I’m really happy. If at all my parents had said, I might have refused to do so, labelling them as “boring”, “long” or with “i’m busy”. Had you not told us, I wouldn’t know what Manusmriti is.
I wouldn’t distribute Manusmriti or any scriptures to the masses because I’m afraid I might not be the right person to do it. I haven’t practiced disciplinedly many of the rites that I am supposed to. The beauty of our scriptures is its passage through inheritence through family or Guru-Shishya parampara. The hymns and words of the scriptures are very powerful, I must be pure first myself to preach that to others. However I wouldn’t deny the education in the scriptures to anybody, irrespective of their caste creed or religion. But I expect them to give due respect to their learning and to me as a teacher. I wouldn’t teach, atleast scriptures, to anybody who wouldn’t respect me or my ideals.
Karthikeyan said
Ok hh, thanks for valuing my comments again. I’ll treat you as an astral being. Hope you’ll keep reading the comments. I’m happy that I have one regular subscriber to my publishings. Your views and constant encouragement will inspire me to write more.
C,L.CHUMBER said
KARTHYKEAN IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CHUMBER-SMIRITY IDEA !!!!!
Dear Karthykean ,
Your good self wrote ( June 9, 2008 @ 5:37 pm ) as below :-
” Your views and constant encouragement will inspire me to write more..”
I appreciate you and Mr.Lavnya for firm stand for rapists,racists and fascists for which you can not convince the coming generation .You are committed to your dead past as the monkey carries his/her dead child until it torn out into pieces.Actually you manuwadis know the merits/demerits of your religion and Gods but you make the masses fool.You being a teacher must be rational but you and your team is not.. Your behaviour compelled me to the idea of the CHUMBER-SMIRITY for which I am thankful to you and your team.I will dedicate it your team.Thanks.
Human said
CHUMBERji,
I really dont think you are part a low caste,you seem to be an paid Ambassader of Christianity,so for you have told much about Hindu religion.
To other people,
Do you really think caste system will be eradicated when change to christianity
Never ..now there are christian nadars,this wont help…
I agree there was some misinterpretation of Work system as caste system and untouchability was introduced in society after 17 th century.
This is very bad thing happened in the country…and we know lot of people such as Saint .Ramanuja,Vivekanadha,Gandhiji,Ambedgarji and a very lot of saints and persons were working against Caste system.
what exactly happened,
the Varna system was of only four division that too was interchangeable..this is only for the convience of good management of the country.
here you should make note that the caste system was Interchangeable….
Later due to invasion of foreign land hoppers such as christian english,muslim Arabs invaded india and we lost our control..
here also you have to make note of what Lord macalay told about indian wealth and education of every indian in parliament…
during last few centuries Slowly this misinterpretations happened and people started ill treating people…Have you ever heard of ‘Guhan’/Sabari character in Ramayana..and it will be unending problem till we eradicate caste system by bringing the culture back…Hindus have to unite together to eradicate caste system and bring india superpower in all ways..we should not encourage this kind of foreign paid Ambasseders such as christian missionaries and Arabs who are trying to capture country in cunning ways…we should realise and unite together…please know more about Ambedgarji ,Vivekanadaji and Ramayana…
Karthikeyan said
Chumber Ji, I and my religion is not for either standing firm or rejecting outright any idea. I’m for considering all ideas equally and putting it into practice wisely. You have something to say? You’re welcome. Didn’t I welcome the idea of Chumber-Smrithi? When a person gave Gandhi Ji a bunch of paper containing mockery poems about Gandhi Ji, he took and kept the attached pins and clips for his use and threw away the trash papers! Similarly, I pledge you that I will surely follow anything in Chumber-Smrithi that is in alignment with my life-style and ideals. The rest will automatically to to trash. I and my religion can endure any attack. Because I understand the truth. I’m telling this really politely and meekly. There is no challenge, no bet. No defence, no threat. I’m not a religious leader. I’m just a follower. So I don’t have to mix and gulp down all of the texts in the scriptures. Just because I don’t know much about the scriptures, I don’t have to believe whatever you say about them. I can distinguish right from wrong and good from bad. Still be assured that I’ll take all the good advice you might give.
C,L.CHUMBER said
MR.HUMAN DON`T TALK LIKE A INHUMAN !!!!!
Dear Human ,
This is not your legal name.Please produce documents in support of your name.Your good self wrote (June 11, 2008 @ 8:04 am) ,” CHUMBERji,
I really dont think you are part a low caste,you seem to be an paid Ambassader of Christianity,so for you have told much about Hindu religion.”
I was the Tehsil Welfare Officer at 18 and I resigned that post at 21 because I could not compromise with the corrupt system .I went to my director and said ,” I am going on leave.I will not come to you again .” Once I produced a T.A. bill , the brahmin accountant demanded bribe.I torn out the bill and never claimed TA.I left that job and did the marketing for a largest non banking saving company of India having H.Q. at Kolkatta.I was sanctioned advance to purchase a car within two years.At the age of 24,I was one of the rich persons of my distt. level city.At 27,I entered in journalism to highlight the problems of the masses and enlighten them.
My one canal plot in urban estate was canceled as I wrote in my magazine that a Punjab`s minister`s father had alliance with Muslim League to extend the boundary of India up to Delhi.I speeched against that minister and he lost next election.I contested the assembly election .I was threatened by the D.S.P. on behalf another minister against whom I contested.Next election ,we planned to dislodge that party.Now the both ministers are ex MLAs and no govt.of their party.
Mr.Human you blamed me baseless,TRUE GOD will teach you a lesson soon.Thanks..
hh said
Karthikeyan,
Yes you are being read and appreciated. Thanks for continuing.
Reg rishis, made mistakes in communication, not communicating properly ..didn’t relaize implications until it was pointed out..and now feeling guilty as hell.
Need to sort myself inside out first and therefore refraining from posting religion.
mesquiteice said
Friends,
Answer this honestly “ Do you think people calling you some name makes you a physically/mentally challenged person?” Do you think some body thinking of you as a downtrodden person makes you downtrodden”
Imagine a guy calling you blind. Do you immediately lose your eyesight. It is only if “you” believe you are blind then you cannot see. Nothing outside can prevemt you see this beautiful world.
Friends, Backwardness is not in the body. It is in the mind. The power is within.
I find it amazing that the physically/mentally challenged do not feel themselves as backward as some of the people who have strong body and a sound mind.
Get out of reach of people who say that you are a deprived group. In what way are they different from you. All that people can do is make some money out of your emotion or get some political mileage.
Please understand that nobody will help you. The moment they know you are weak they will try to use your weakness. All the so called people who claim to be working for your upliftment are actually not. You have to decide.
The decision to be Backward or Forward is entirely with you. You are on the verge of changing your world and your future generations. Think about it.
If you have decided to be backward, no religion can get you forward. Once you decide to go forward, then the religion doesn’t really matter.
It is really pathetic to see people fighting to be called backward. What a pity. These guys have no belief in themselves. In fact even if they want to believe in themselves, the leader of the group will not allow them.
Liberate yourself. Don’t cry like a baby. GROW UP MAN!
Be Strong and Be Happy.
James said
Upper cast Hindus are using Dalits to increase their numbers. They have no sympathy towards them. Due to BR Ambedkar and many other Dalit reformist dalits are enjoying the reservation. These upper casts oppress all the minorities and blasfaming the minorities. By doing these things they have captured all the resources.
Take pledge not to become fools by these miscreants.
sushmita said
hehehehhe…. this is one of the most hilarious posts ever… why don’t you losers try asking aishwarya whether she belongs to a backward much less suppressed class. i am sure she’ll kick you out as you deserve to be. i am an uppercaste person who is very proud of that. for all the talk talk and talk that you people do, expecting handouts like beggars from the government, private businesses and foreign aid, you don’t deserve anything more than scavenging as your forefathers used to do. and for all the holier tahn thou attitude, if you ahve the guts try and read arun shourie’s ‘worshipping false gods’ where he does nothing except quote people and thereby points out poor ambedkar’s real intentions. even with all the reservations and bits and pieces that are thrown at you people, there will never be any real power or economic strength to people who expect things for free. look anywhere its only and only and only the forward castes that rule. and it will be so till all eternity.
so long lousy people, you really are a shame to the real dalits who work hard to prosper in life.
C,L.CHUMBER said
THERE ARE NEITHER UPPER CASTES NOR LOWER CASTES !!!!!
Dear James,
Your good self said (June 28, 2008 @ 5:23 am ),” These upper castes oppress all the minorities and blasfaming the minorities. By doing these things they have captured all the resources.Take pledge not to become fools by these miscreants.” There is no upper caste and no lower caste .The Brahmins,Kshatriya , vaish and shudra are graded and degraded varnas .The caste/tribes are only in shudra varna.The shudras are not Hindus.The untouchables`movements e.g.Adi-dharam Mandal,Adi-hindu,Adi-dravida,Adi-andhra ,Adi-karnatka,Namo-shudra and many more in modern period and the Bhakti movement of medieval period denounced Hinduism and its Gods.Dr.Ambawdekar also denounced the Hinduism and embraced the Buddhism.You had rightly said,”Upper caste Hindus are using Dalits to increase their numbers.” WE took pledge to fight brahminism with teeth and nails.PLEASE ASK THE CHRISTIAN SCHOOLS/COLLEGES/INSTITUTIONS TO RESERVE 50% SEATS FOR CHRISTIANS AS THE PB.AND HRY. HIGH COURT VERDICT WHEN THE SIKHS IMPLEMENTED.
mesquiteice said
Chumber Ji, Well Said
James Ji, Dalit Nation Ji and all others,
WHO IS OPRESSING YOU? Is somebody stopping you from doing business. Is somebody stopping you from inventing new technology. Is somebody stopping you from coming up. The anwer is NO. But you want to cry for nothing.
There are only 2 castes Male (and) Female. Girls will not marry people because of caste. They will marry you only if you are a MAN. ( MEN dont cry. Men are strong) Girls are not matters of politics. I am pained that you can take so lowly about girls as though they are your private property. You think girls are like your tail is it? arent you ashamed to ask for girls on the basis of cast. We should try to be Role Models not beggars to get a girl.
Actually I feel, such possessive people are not worthy of any girl, atleast not aishwarya. What kind of People are you.
I am sorry to tell this to you in public, but i have to. You are a crier. you want to be oppressed. Even thought you have a chance to come out of oppresstion you are choosing to be oppressed.
Dont listen to political people. Do your best and see the results instead of crying. Are you a baby?
I agree that this is a tough time. But unless we fight out tough times, we cannot come up. If you keep on calling yourself as “OPPRESSED” you are oppressing not only yourself by your entire family. You are spoiling the future of india because of your politics.
Let us fight the EVIL of caste system and dont ever call youself oppressed. Do you know a guy without both his legs is planning to win olympics medal. We should be ashamed about ourselves.
Be strong Be Happy
Amarnath said
I am a bunt. I am living a bunt life
The readers are requested to look at the social status of bunts in the coastal karnataka area. There is plenty for you all to google. No doubt there exists casteism in India. But bunts form one of the powerful groups who dominate agriculture in that region. I will not agree for bunts being called oppressed. If you call bunts oppressors, I will agree to it…………. to some extents.
Calling bunts oppressed is ridiculous.
The author of this article, or the source of the author’s information either has mal intentions or is extremely mis informed.
Amarnath said
By the way.
Unlike what is claimed in the above article, V T Rajashekar is from a the bunts community, but that community is in no way opressed.
Read about V T Rajashekar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V._T._Rajshekar
it says “He is himself not a Dalit, he is the son of late P.S. Thimmappa Shetty, who retired as the Collector of South Kanara District. He belongs to the well-known Vontibettu Beedu family belonging to the higher caste Bunt community”
ridiculous………. absolutely ridiculous article.
Gagan said
I am a bunt. And anyone who thinks bunts are dalits can kiss my a**. God! I have missed so much on reservations!! If I knew that I was a dalit, may be I could have had all the freebies that come with it.
Bunts are descendants of Greeks and came to India couple of millennium ago.
C,L.CHUMBER said
MANUWADIS STRUGGLE TO MAKE ABORIGINAL INDIANS ” WEAK AND UNHAPPY”
Dear Mesquiteice ,
Your good self said (July 7, 2008 @ 12:17 pm ) ,”Let us fight the EVIL of caste system and dont ever call you self oppressed. Do you know a guy without both his legs is planning to win olympics medal. We should be ashamed about ourselves.Be strong Be Happy.”
First of all , we must get rid of superiority or inferiority complex .The manuwadis are anti-India that is why they as rulers failed to fetch Gold medals.They send Arjuna players and Pandit Daronacharya / Krishna as coaches .The do not allow Eklavvyas in the Olympics due to their manuwadi bent of mind .The other countries send Eklavvyas of their countries .WE fail to win medals due to Pandit Daronacharya coach who do not prefer merit .Krishna in his Gita abuses women of all varnas,Vaish and Shudras men and women by declaring them inauspiciou . WE SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF WHO DO NOT CONDEMN THE RAPISTS , RACISTS AND FASCISTS GODS AND THEIRS FOLLOWERS .UNLESS WE FINISH THIS SYSTEM WE CAN NOT BE STRONG AND HAPPY .
Amarnath said
I congratulate V T Rajshekar again and wish him all the best in his endeavors in bringing equality amongst us.
India needs more sons like him.
Owner of this blog/site, pl. do not delete my wishes to Rajshekar, like you did last time. Please do not delete my posts expressing my wish to do away with any kind of discrimination in my country. It does not bode well of your intentions.
Karigowda said
I think VTR is far greater than ambedkar in his thoughts. Ambedkar is no match to him. He was just a british ass licker.
mesquiteice said
Chumber Ji,
Normally I do not comment about stories. However, since you are so passionate about stories and believe in stories more than reality itself, please note that one of the allegation that have been raised is that Ekalavya learned all the archery skills by secretly observing the training sessions of Dronacharya. When Dronacharaya found out, he visited Ekalavya to verify his suspicions. Ekalavya itself knew that he should not have done like this and therefore requested Drona to pardon him. Although Drona could have demanded an even greater punishment under the laws in effect at that time, he asked only for Ekalavya’s right thumb, thus making useless the archery skills which he had learned secretly.
Do you know which is true and which is false? Whether you believe it of not all these are stories?
I do not see any reason in blaming someone else for your failure today? Were you stopped from running in the olympics. You want to simply sit and expect that olympics medal should be given ..
More over you have not answered my question about why girls should marry only their own caste which i suppose this discussion is about. Why not others?. Who is dalit nation to tell a girl whom to marry and whom not.
If you don’t want to eat food today just because you were hungry yesterday. So be it.
You also have the option to continue to go without food for the next one year, since you had to go hungry on many occasions in the last one year.
If you are not able to be strong and happy, I can’t help it. Be Weak Be Sad
atleast let others Be Strong and Be Happy
C,L.CHUMBER said
KARIGOWDA HAVE NO COMMON SENSE !!!!!
Dear Viewers ,
Mr./Mrs. Karigowda said (July 10, 2008 @ 9:06 am) ,” I think VTR is far greater than ambedkar in his thoughts. Ambedkar is no match to him. He was just a british ass licker.”
Karigowda have no common sense that Dr.Ambedkar and Mr.V.T.Rajsekhar are neither contemporaries nor opponents .Mr.Rajshekar is admirer of Dr. Ambedkar .Dr.Ambawdekar was neither an ass nor British licker.
He was bestowed by the Indian Govt.with the title BHARAT RATTAN posthumously ! He was the first law minister of Indian Republic .He drafted the Indian Constitution .The Brahmins found him fit for son-in-law ! Adi-guru Kabir said : -
AN ASS`S BETTER THAN A BRAHMIN , A DOG`S BETTER THAN ALIEN GOD !
Siddhartha said
Oh, come on! Do you seriously think Brahmins have enough co-ordination to carry out a conspiracy? They’re all too busy trying to be clean anyway.
There’s no bloody conspiracy. Please occupy yourself with ways to improve the Dalit community. Not identifying an imaginary enemy. Agreed, the Brahmins have it better. That doesn’t mean they’re only occupation is holding us back.
This is shameful.
C,L.CHUMBER said
WORSHIPING RAPISTS,RACISTS AND FASCISTS GODS IS REALLY SHAMEFUL !!!!!
BUT SHARAM TUM KO KEON AATI NAHIN !!!!!
Krishna said
My Gods are neither rapists, racists nor fascists.
They portray life as it can be. They live life in every situation, every emotion as it can be.
They show how i can live – both as evil and as good.
And then they guide from ignorance to light.
The choice is left to me how i decide to take it.
All strories have an ending.
You are picking only the middle portions of the story to suit your anger.
mesquiteice said
CHUMBER JI and all others,
Do you understand at least now (based on what krishna has said)that you are in fairy land thinking that stories are real.
Come out and face truth. Dont be shy. After all everybody is a human(whether fascists, rapists or racists) and we are all part of the same ecosystem.
HATE SIN, NOT THE SINNER. One we get this into our heads, this world will become a better place to live for all of us.
Karthikeyan said
I have one question. This blog is titled “Dalit Nation”. How will be the reaction if there were a blog called “Brahmin Nation” or more generally “Hindu Nation” ? Is it fair to link a community or group name with nation? I think it is unfair in a secular multi cultural country. Your comments are welcome.
Karthikeyan said
Someone said “worshipping is more shameful, but seeking reservation isn’t”. I wish to ask the public how enjoying freebies in the name of reservation is more respectable than worshipping God in accordance to one’s own religion.
c.l.chumber said
SWAMI ACHHUTANAND AND SHAHID CHANDER SHEKHAR AZAD SOCIAL REVOLUTIONARY !!!!! Dear readers,
I am on tour to attend th SHAHID CHANDER SHEKHAR AZAD e Swami Achhutanand founder of the Adi-Hindu Maha Sabha`s 75th death anniversarry function as CHIEF GUEST and functions of Shahid Chander Shekhar`s 102nd birth day celebrations at KANPUR ( U.P.).I am one week tour and will reply after 24th instant.Thanks.
kk said
nobody needs divisive groupism in the name of caste, class or whatever humbug.
we are all indians first, let us celebrate that.
C,L.CHUMBER said
BRAHMINS MUST BURN THEIRS SCRIPTURES ADVOCATING DIVISIVE
GROUPING IN THE NAME OF CASTE , CLASS OR WHATEVER HUMBUG
TO CELEBRATE THE INDIAN NATIONALISM !!!!!
C,L.CHUMBER said
HATE SINS AS WELL AS THE SINNERS ! ! ! ! !
Dear Viewers ,
Mr. Mesquiteice said ( July 21, 2008 @ 5:49 am ) ,” CHUMBER JI and all others,- – - HATE SIN, NOT THE SINNER. One we get this into our heads, this world will become a better place to live for all of us.” Why did not Brahmins since ancient Vedic period get this into theirs heads to make world a better place to live for non-brahmins ? Practice what you preach .If you hate the malaria disease and love the mosquitoes then how the malaria disease will be cured for ever .Will you do that or the health department.`s suggestions to finish the malaria disease as well as the mosquitoes ?
Then the every country must disband the army / police to love the internal and external threats to the country .We say ,” HATE SINS AS WELL AS THE SINNERS ! ! ! ! ! “
C,L.CHUMBER said
ANALYSTS ANALISE EVEN FICTIONS AND NON-FICTIONS !!!!!
Dear Viewers ,
Mr. Mesquiteice said (July 11, 2008 @ 10:31 am ) ,” Do you know which is true and which is false? Whether you believe it of not all these are stories? ” An analyst even analise the fictions and non-fictions . If you treat the Eklavya`s sorrows in the Mahabharta a story then why you worship the heroes of fictions .Why did you preach fiction ? Please have a judicious mind .
hh said
Chumber-ji,
Itihaasas (ramayan, mahabharat) are not fiction.
Puranas are not fiction either, but they are exagerrated accounts with some metaphorical stuff in it; and therefore may not be free from some interpolation as well.
mequiteice said
Dear ChumberJI,
Please be clarified that no body who has any sense will worship a hero or preach fiction.
A sensible person will try to become a hero. You are only talking about ekalvya and kabirdas which is not enough. We have to become like them and be a guiding light.
Please note that we cannot be come great by blaming others and fighting. We can become great by forgiving.
It may be worth for an analyst who is paid, to analyse fiction and non fiction. For our country and our people who are suffering from hunger, no amount of analysing will help.
However, since you seem to have a very judicious mind and a deep understanding of the subject, I suggest you analyse the life and works of Subramanya Bharathi.
If you want to really hit the base, I suggest you analyse Gauthama Buddha and Jesus Christ
This analysis will help us, not in understanding bharathi and buddha and christ but in understanding ourself.
As far as your comment that you want to hate sinners, all i can tell you is that we should correct ourselves before finding fault with others. everybody who does make mistakes. The question is wheter you are able to understand it and correct it when you come to know it. Any person who says that he has never done a mistake or sin is either an idiot or hypocrite.
Please let me know your opinion on DALITNATION’S view that “Girls should marry only those whom the are told to marry? should girls not marry whom they like
Karthikeyan said
“you hate the malaria disease and love the mosquitoes then how the malaria disease will be cured for ever.”
Also, you hate the malaria disease and also hate the vaccine that prevents malaria, then how can you escape the risk of malaria. Brahmins are not mosquitoes, they are vaccines.
“Why did not Brahmins since ancient Vedic period get this into theirs heads to make world a better place to live for non-brahmins ?”
Vedic Brahmins had everything in their heads and preached what is welfare for entire humanity. The concept of “dalit”, and other words were invented by power hungry politicians and imperialistic foreigners.
Everyone should respect every others religious feelings unbiasedly to celebrate the Indian Nationalism.
C,L.CHUMBER said
I WILL NEVER REPLY TO MR. KARTHIKEYAN IRRATIONAL , WORSHIPER AND DEFENDER OF RAPISTS,RACISTS AND FASCISTS GODS . EVERYONE SHOULD HATE EVERY OTHER`S RELIGIOUS FEELINGS BASED ON RAPEISM, RACISM AND FASCISM TO CELEBRATE THE TRUEST INDIAN NATIONALISM AND HUMANISM !!!!!
C,L.CHUMBER said
WHY NOT RAMA FORGAVE RAVNA ,SITA AND SHAMBUKA ? ? ? ? ?
Dear Viewers ,
Mr. Mequiteice said (July 28, 2008 @ 12:54 pm ) ,” Please note that we cannot become great by blaming others and fighting. We can become great by forgiving”
Then why are the Brahmins worship Rama who did not forgave
Ravna , Sita and Shambuk ? Why did Rama banish innocent and pious Sita ? Why did Rama kill innocent and pious Saint Shambuk ?
Why do brahmins worship Parshuram who did not forgave kashattriyas ? Why did brahmins not forgive Muslims for the Babri Masque ? Why did they demolish the Babri Mosque ? Practice what you preach !
Yes , the Brahmins forgave the rapists , racists and fascists .They not only forgave them but also declared them theirs GODS !!!!! They should be ashamed !!!!
C,L.CHUMBER said
WHO TELLS THE LIE FOR WHOM ? ? ? ? ?
DEAR VIEWERS ,
I wrote ( C,L.CHUMBER said,July 25, 2008 @ 1:59 pm ) : – ” If you hate the malaria disease and love the mosquitoes then how the malaria disease will be cured for ever .Will you do that or the health department.`s suggestions to finish the malaria disease as well as the mosquitoes ? ”
An irrational , worshiper and defender of rapist,racist and fascist Gods( July 28, 2008 @ 5:52 pm ) distorted my above views as below : -
” you hate the malaria disease and love the mosquitoes then how the malaria disease will be cured for ever.”
” Also, you hate the malaria disease and also hate the vaccine that prevents malaria, then how can you escape the risk of malaria . ”
WE SHOULD BE JUDICIOUS MINDS NOT DICTATORS TO DISTORT ANOTHER`S VIEWS . THEN THE SPIRIT OF DIALOGUE DIES AUTOMATICALLY AND THE WAR BEGINS WHICH ENDS IN DEATHS OF BOTH SIDES .THE IRRATIONAL PEOPLE QUERLE WHEN THEY LOST LOGIC TO PROVE RIGHT THEM SELVES .WE ARE RIGHT AND OUR FORE FATHERS WERE ALSO RIGHT BECAUSE THEY PREACH EQUALITY , LIBERETY AND FRATERNITY .
mesquiteice said
Chumber Ji,
Firstly, I want to reiterate that you are giving so much importance to stories but not to your brothers and sisters ( all Indians)
PLEASE BE CLARIFIED THAT ANY BODY WHO DOES NOT FORGIVE IS NOT A BRAHMIN! RAMA WAS A KSHATRIYA AND THOUGH PARASURAMA WAS BORN A BRAHMIN HE WAS A kSHATRIYA BY KARMA.
WHY RAMA DID NOT FORGIVE SITA?
Rama adhered strictly to his duty both as a king and a husband. These conflicted when society thought that Sita was unfit to become queen. But Rama had to send away Sita since his duty of king came first. He was ready to sacrifice his happiness for the sake of his duty. A legend by Rishi Agastya in the epic states that Vishnu in a previous age had been cursed by a rishi, whose wife had been killed by Vishnu for sheltering his enemies escaping from battle. The Rishi condemns Vishnu to be denied for a long age, the companionship of his soul mate, just as Vishnu, by an inadvertent display of anger, had deprived the rishi of his loving wife. Thus Rama, Vishnu’s incarnation, must live the rest of his life without Sita.
WHY IS RAMA CONSIDERED GREAT?
As a person, Rama personifies the characteristics of an ideal person (purushottama) who is to be emulated. He had within him all the desirable virtues that any individual would seek to aspire, and he fulfils all his moral obligations (maryada). Rama’s purity and piety in his intentions and actions inspires affection and devotion for him from a variety of characters from different backgrounds. For example, he gave up his rightful claim to the throne, and agreed to go into exile for fourteen years, to fulfill the vow that his father had given to Kaikeyi, one of King Dashratha’s wives. This is in spite of the fact that Kaikeyi’s son, Bharat, begged him to return back to Ayodhya and said that he did not want to rule in place of Rama. But Rama considered his dharma as a son above that of his own birthright and his life’s ambition. For such supreme sacrifices, and many other qualities, Shri Rama is considered a maryada purushottam. Some of his ideals are as follows:
1. At the time when it was normal for kings to have more than one wife, Rama gave ideal of having a single wife. After Sita was banished, he was doing penance with a gold statue of Sita. In Balakanda of Valmiki Ramayana it is written that Rama and Sita resided in each others heart.
2. Rama always followed his promise at any cost. In fact, he went to forest to make his father’s promise to Kaikeyi true. There are many examples of Rama’s promises which he kept. Most important are the promise to sages to save their lives from Rakshasas, getting back Sugreeva’s kingdom, making Vibhishana the king of Lanka.
3. Excellent friend: Rama had very touching relations with his friends irrespective of their status. Some of his friends are Nishad-raj Guh, King of Nishaads (a caste whose profession was hunting the birds), Sugreeva (the Vanar king) and Vibhishana a Rakshasa
Source of information: WIKIPEDIA
Karthikeyan said
“Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain.”
How can I, a mere mortal succeed. Bye friends, I’m stopping commenting here (don’t know if temporarily or permanently) until I get some life out.
C,L.CHUMBER said
BEWARE OF FOLLOWERS OF RAPIST,RACIST AND FASCIST GODS AS WELL AS CREATOR,PERSORVER AND FOLLOWER OF VARNA / CASTE SYSTEM TO MAKE OUR COUNTRY WORLD POWER !!!!!
C,L.CHUMBER said
NEITHER BRAHMA NOR RAM WERE GREAT HUMANITARIANS !!!!!
THEY BOTH DISCARDED THEIRS WIVES .BRAHMA TRIED HIS BEST TO RAPE HIS OWN DAUGHTER ,THEN GREATEST FEMINIST TRUE BHAGWAN SHIV JI BEHEADED BRAHMA TO SAVE HIS DAUGHTER !!!!!
DEAR VIEWERS ,
Mr,Mesquiteice said (August 5, 2008 @ 12:48 pm ) ,” Chumber Ji,Firstly, I want to reiterate that you are giving so much importance to stories but not to your brothers and sisters ( all Indians) .”
MY ANSWER IS : – I HAD ALREADY REPLIED THAT I AM QUOTING FROM YOUR SCRIPTURES .IF THESE ARE STORIES,THEN YOUR SCRIPTURES ARE FICTIONS AND YOUR GODS ARE MYTHOLEGICAL .I PURCHASED A VALMIKI RAMAYNA IN 1976 AD FROM M/S HASANAND & SONS,NEW DELHI IN WHICH THE LAST CHAPTER ” UTTRA KAND ” WAS NOT PUBLISHED.THE PUBLISHER SAID THAT THIS CHAPTER WAS FICTITIOUS .I ASKED HIM THEN HOW YOU CAME TO KNOW ABOUT THE RAM RAJYA WHICH IS RECORDED IN THE”UTTAR KAND ” .HE HAD NO ANSWER .DR. AMBEDKAR WROTE THAT THE BRAHMINS REVISED VALMIKI RAMAYNA 5 TIMES .PLEASE DECIDE YOUR SCRIPTURES ARE FICTIONS OR NOT ? SECOND , WHAT ARE YOU DOING FOR YOUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS ? I AM DOING THIS JOB DAY AN NIGHT FOR MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS ( COUNTRY ) AND YOU ARE WORSHIPING , DEFENDING AND GLORIFYING YOUR RAPIST,RACIST AND FASCIST GODS !!!!!
( 2 ) PLEASE BE CLARIFIED THAT ANY BODY WHO DOES NOT FORGIVE IS NOT A BRAHMIN ! RAMA WAS A KSHATRIYA AND THOUGH PARASURAMA WAS BORN A BRAHMIN HE WAS A kSHATRIYA BY KARMA.
MY ANSWER IS : – Your question is irrelevant .Both your Rama Kshattry and Brahmin Parshuram had been discussed many a times in this blog.Please read carefully how they were cruel even towards theirs innocent and pious family members !!!!!
( 3 )WHY RAMA DID NOT FORGIVE SITA ? Rama adhered strictly to his duty both as a king and a husband. These conflicted when society thought that Sita was unfit to become queen. But Rama had to send away Sita since his duty of king came first. He was ready to sacrifice his happiness for the sake of his duty. A legend by Rishi Agastya in the epic states that Vishnu in a previous age had been cursed by a rishi, whose wife had been killed by Vishnu for sheltering his enemies escaping from battle. The Rishi condemns Vishnu to be denied for a long age, the companionship of his soul mate, just as Vishnu, by an inadvertent display of anger, had deprived the rishi of his loving wife. Thus Rama, Vishnu’s incarnation, must live the rest of his life without Sita.
MY ANSWER IS : – RAMA TESTIFIED SITA`S PURITY BY AGANI IN LANKA .THEN HE MUST CAME TO PROTECT SITA AS AN HUSBAND AND A KING. HE NEVER CHARGE SHEETED SITA .HE SAID TO SITA TO ACCOMPANY LAXMAN TO VISIT HOLY PLACES .WHEN IN THE FOREST LAXMAN SAID THAT RAM HAD DESERTED YOU . SHE WEPT VERY BITTERLY AND SHOWED HIS BELLY THAT SHE IS PREGNANT .BUT THE CRUEL DOUBLE BROTHER-IN-LAW ( LAXMAN WAS BOTH JIJA AND DEVAR OF SITA AS SITA`S SISTER WAS MARRIED TO LAXMAN ) OF SITA LEFT HER ALONE .THIS IS THE CHARACTER OF HALF VISHNU ( RAMA ) AND QUARTER VISHANU ( LAXMAN ) .RAMA WAS NEITHER AN IDEAL HUSBAND NOR AN IDEAL KING .HE WAS ONLY THE DARLING OF THE MANUWADI BRAHMINS WHO BESTOWED HIM A TITLE OF INCARNATION OF A RAPIST,RACIST AND FASCIST GOD-VISHANU !!!!!
FROM WHICH EPIC YOU HAVE THIS VISHANU STORY ? VISHANU RAPED ADI-MATA VARINDA W/O JALANDHAR ( PL.READ DISTT. JALANDHAR GAZETEER ,PADAM PURAN,MOVIE TULSI-VIVAH ).THEN RAMA SHOULD QUIT THE KINGSHIP TO SAVE HIS INNOCENT,PIOUS WIFE SITA AND LAXMAN SHOULD RULE THE AYODYA .WHAT IS THE SPIRITUALITY AND HUMANITY IN RAMA`S DECISION TO BANISH SITA AND MURDERING SHUDAR SAINT SHAMBUK ? ? ? ? ? YOU SHOULD FEEL SHAME IN PROTECTING BANISHMENT OF SITA ? HE MAY SENT HER TO HER PARENTAL KINGDOM .I READ A BOOK OF HINDI WRITERS WHO VISITED SITA`S PARENTAL KINGDOM AREA , THEY RECORDED THAT THERE IS STILL RESENTMENT IN THAT AREA THAT RAMA BANISHED THEIRS PIOUS AND INNOCENT DAUGHTER SITA. SITA`S AREA BIHAR`S MR. LALU PARSHAD YADAV STOPPEDTHE MR.ADVANI1S RAM-RATH.MR.L.P.YADAV IS STILL ACTIVE TO STOP MR.ADVANI.
” WHY IS RAMA GREAT ” MR.MESQUITEICE IS ADVOCATING STILL . HE IS DOING MARKETING OF EXPIRY DATE MEDICINE .BEWARE OF EXPIRY DATE MEDICINES AND RAPIST,RACIST AND FASCIST GODS / CASTE SYSTEM / VARNA SYSTEM TO KEEP FIT YOUR SELF AND YOUR SWEET COUNTRY !!!!!
mesquiteice said
Karthikeyan Ji,
Success or Failure is not in our hands. But your fight against stupidity should never stop. As much as you remove stupidity around you, India will become a better place for all of us.
What will ultimately count is not whether you won or lost, but how much you tried.
Bhagat Singh/Mahatma Gandhi/Subramanya Bharathi/Rani Laxmibai/Tipu Sultan/Tantia Tope/Chatrapathi Shivaji/Ashoka to name a few lost their lives but their efforts never lost life,it inspired millions of our brothers and sisters to understand that we are one(INDIAN)(There are so many brothers and sisters who are still losing their lives just because of some politically motivated stupidity).
Ultimately whether stupid of intelligent, arent we all brothers and sisters?
At this point when our brothers and sisters fail to understand that we are one, it definitely pains us from the heart. Let us hope that they lose their childishness and become sensible.
Do not mistake me requesting you to comment on this blog if you dont like, All I want to say is “DONT GIVE UP HOPE” because when you give up hope, you are making millions of people give up.
May the TRUTH ALONE TRIUMPH
Jai Hind
h3 said
u guys are lost …. all of us are jus plain human…. fuck yo all
mesquiteice said
Mr. CHUMBER.
I SPOKE ABOUT RAMA SINCE YOU ARE THE ONE HARPING ABOUT SUCH STORIES AND THAT TOO IT IS NOT MY OPINION, IT IS FROM A PUBLIC SOURCE AND BASED ON FACTS.
WHEN I TOLD YOU NOT TO WASTE TIME ON STORIES, YOU TOLD THAT STORIES ARE VERY IMPORTANT AND THAT YOU ARE AN ANALYST IN THESE MATTERS.
YOU ARE THE ONE FINDING FAULT WITH EVERYBODY ELSE WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING YOUR OWN FOLLY. YOU ARE THINKING THAT YOU ARE THE ONLY GOOD PERSON AND EVERYBODY ELSE IS BAD.
WHILE YOU ARE ABLE TO TALK SO MUCH BAD ABOUT SOMEBODY, YOU ARE UNABLE TO ACCEPT ANY THING WHICH MAY BE GOOD ABOUT IT. THAT IS YOUR ATTITUDE?
Karthikeyan said
Thanks Mesquitiece Ji,
Nice finding people whom even I don’t know offering support/advice to me. It was tough to stay at the place where I’m being bashed and thrashed. You can count and see how many times I was attacked personally in this blog. This was kind of tooo much on me and I couldn’t stand. And worst of all, nobody seemed to express any condemnation to such personal attacks in public forum.
Atleast you are encouraging me to hold on. This makes me feel better.
Jai Hind!
C,L.CHUMBER said
I WILL DARE TO DRINK A BOWL OF POISON LIKE SOCRATE BUT I WILL NOT WORSHIP YOUR RAPIST , RACIST AND FASCIST GODS !!!!! I WILL CONTINUE TO EXPOSE YOUR EVIL GODS IN EVERY HOOK AND CORNER OF THE WORLD !!!!
DEAR VIEWERS ,
MR Mesquiteice said ( August 7, 2008 @ 9:34 am ) said ;-
Mr. CHUMBER.
( 1 ) I SPOKE ABOUT RAMA SINCE YOU ARE THE ONE HARPING ABOUT SUCH STORIES AND THAT TOO IT IS NOT MY OPINION, IT IS FROM A PUBLIC SOURCE AND BASED ON FACTS.
*****MY ANSWER IS : – I HAD ALREADY REPLIED THAT I AM QUOTING FROM YOUR SCRIPTURES .IF THESE ARE STORIES,THEN YOUR SCRIPTURES ARE FICTIONS AND YOUR GODS ARE MYTHOLOGICAL( C,L.CHUMBER said,August 6, 2008 @ 4:35 pm ).
( 2 ) WHEN I TOLD YOU NOT TO WASTE TIME ON STORIES, YOU TOLD THAT STORIES ARE VERY IMPORTANT AND THAT YOU ARE AN ANALYST IN THESE MATTERS.
*****MY ANSWER IS : – I NEVER CLAIMED THAT I AM THE PERFECT ANALYST OF ANYTHING .
(3) YOU ARE THE ONE FINDING FAULT WITH EVERYBODY ELSE WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING YOUR OWN FOLLY. YOU ARE THINKING THAT YOU ARE THE ONLY GOOD PERSON AND EVERYBODY ELSE IS BAD.
***** MY ANSWE IS : – I JOINED THIS BLOG ON 14-4-2008 A.D. I NEVER FIND A SINGLE BRAHMIN WHO DENOUNCED THE RAPIST,RACIST AND FAST GODS .I AM CRITICISING THESE EVILS.THAT IS WHY YOU ARE BADS AND I AM NOT ONLY GOOD , I AM THE BEST AMONG YOU.YOU WROTE IN FICTITIOUS NAME.WHAT IS THE PROBLEM IN REAL NAME ?
( 4 ) WHILE YOU ARE ABLE TO TALK SO MUCH BAD ABOUT SOMEBODY, YOU ARE UNABLE TO ACCEPT ANY THING WHICH MAY BE GOOD ABOUT IT. THAT IS YOUR ATTITUDE?
***** MY ANSWER IS : – IS THERE MORE BAD TO DEFEND EVILS LIKE RAPISM,RACISM AND FASCISM.WHAT CAN EXPECT NAZIS FROM AN HUMANIST .LIKE ME ? I NEVER WROTE ANYTHING AGAINST YOUR RESPECT UNLESS YOU
WROTE WRONG . I JUST REPLIED LOGICALLY.YOU ARE SO CALLED UPPER CASTE PERSON , YOU EXPECT FROM ME A SO CALLED LOW CASTE PERSON TO WORSHIP YOUR RAPIST , RACIST AND FASCIST GODS.I WILL DARE TO DRINK A BOWL OF POISON LIKE SOCRATE BUT NOT TO JOIN YOUR BAD COMPANY !!!!!
h said
Karthikeyan,
Knowingly or unknowingly those that are oppressed become the oppressors themselves. Its an unfortunate fact.
These are people who like to attack the person instead of the viewpoint.
Forget them. Don’t take them seriously.
It is the height of foolishness to link the denouncing of Gods with the betterment of SCs and STs. As though their position gets improved not by acquiring skills or education but by ‘denouncing Gods’.
How to talk to such people. Don’t waste your time over this. Move on to a forum where you may find answers to your questions and find nice people to talk to.
C ya.
mesquiteice said
karthikeyan ji,
you are most welcome.
mesquiteice said
Mr. chumber
you said” BEWARE OF EXPIRY DATE MEDICINES AND RAPIST,RACIST AND FASCIST GODS / CASTE SYSTEM / VARNA SYSTEM TO KEEP FIT YOUR SELF AND YOUR SWEET COUNTRY !!!!!
Dont take this as a comment. I know it was just a slip of your finger. Please refer to INDIA as OUR SWEET COUNTRY hereafter, I will be glad. Thanks
Jai Hind
icely said
what bramin dalit stupid talking all are same people
C,L.CHUMBER said
UNTOUCHABLES( SCs )ARE NOT HINDUS.THEY HAVE A SEPARATE IDENTITY !!!!!
-DR.AMBEDKAR IN ” WHAT CONGRESS AND GANDHI
HAVE DONE TO THE UNTOUCHABLES .”
*****ACCORDING TO THIS TERMINOLOGY ,HINDUS ARE CALLED SAVARNAS AND OF THE UNTOUCHABLES AS PANCHAMAS .SUCH A TERMINOLOGY COULD NOT HAVE COME INTO EXISTENCE IF SEPARATION HAD NOT BECOME SO PROMINENT AND ITS OBSERVANCE SI NECESSARY AS TO REQUIRE COINING OF SPECIAL TERMS TO GIVE EXPRESSION TO THE FACT .
*****
Sharath Rao said
All individuals are responsible for their own deeds and collective guilt is a
deadly scam. The idea that when a person who is part of some group does
something bad in history and remote past, all people in that group are responsible is a logical fallacy caused by group thinking – a fallacy that contributes greatly to the evil done in the world.
C,L.CHUMBER said
STUPIDS DO NOT DIALOGUE , THEY QUARREL WITH EACH OTHERS !!!!!
DEAR VIEWERS ,
Mr.Icely said ( August 8, 2008 @ 3:07 pm ) , ” what bramin dalit stupid talking all are same people .”
PLEASE READ THIS QUOTATION : -
IRON SHARPENS IRON ; SCHOLAR , THE SCHOLAR !!!!! -THE TALMUD
mesquiteice said
DRINKING HEMLOCK POISON WILL NOT ANY PERSON SOCRATES.
TRY TO BE LIKE YOURSELF. YOU MAY ACTUALLY BE GREATER THAN SOCRATES
Dear Brother CHUMBER ,
Firstly, If you are so particular about names, change the name of this blog which talks bad about our sister “Aishwarya Rai” which is the right of every human. Why are they talking bad about our sister. DONT INSULT OUR SISTERS, THEY WILL MARRY WHOEVER THEY LIKE, WHO ARE YOU TO COMMENT ABOUT IT???
please dont make fun of my name, I know you have a very good name, but that that does not mean you can abuse me as “FICTITIOUS”. I never told that your name is fictitious (have i ever asked you about your name). PLEASE RESPECT OTHERS EMOTIONS. HAS INDIAN CONTITUTION BANNED ANY PERSON FROM HAVING ANY NAME. In fact I dont want to have any name so what. If i tell my name I know you will make comments on my name and make fun? ACTUALLY I want to have the name CHUMBER. I will try. If there are any rules regarding name/identity for this blog, please let me know. I will respect it. Otherwise, please dont try to divert from the main matter.
You wrote “( 4 ) WHILE YOU ARE ABLE TO TALK SO MUCH BAD ABOUT SOMEBODY, YOU ARE UNABLE TO ACCEPT ANY THING WHICH MAY BE GOOD ABOUT IT. THAT IS YOUR ATTITUDE?”
***** MY ANSWER IS : – IS THERE MORE BAD TO DEFEND EVILS LIKE RAPISM,RACISM AND FASCISM.WHAT CAN EXPECT NAZIS FROM AN HUMANIST .LIKE ME ? I NEVER WROTE ANYTHING AGAINST YOUR RESPECT UNLESS YOU WROTE WRONG . I JUST REPLIED LOGICALLY.YOU ARE SO CALLED UPPER CASTE PERSON , YOU EXPECT FROM ME A SO CALLED LOW CASTE PERSON TO WORSHIP YOUR RAPIST , RACIST AND FASCIST GODS.I WILL DARE TO DRINK A BOWL OF POISON LIKE SOCRATE BUT NOT TO JOIN YOUR BAD COMPANY !!!!!
PLEASE DONT WORSHIP ANY GOD. is any one asking you to worship any god? but why are you creating enimity between brothers and sisters becase you have problems with god. If you have problems with god, then go and fight it with him. Dont create enimity within brothers and sisters.
I understand that you are not against any caste, but you do not like the way some of the people are behaving and ill treating you. If this is correct, I would like to join you in your fight for your rights. but if you trying to do politics and create problems for OUR COUNTRY, by dividing brothers and sisters based on some stories/caste then please reconsider your position. THIS HAS BEEN BANNED BY INDIAN CONSTITUTION. NO body has the right to talk bad about any body on the basis of caste/creed or religion.
I want to request you not to divide OUR INDIA, by creating walls based on stories and comics. Please note that creating hatred and enimity among our brothers and sisters is banned by indian laws.
SARE JAHAN SE ACHCHA, BHARAT DESH HAMARA.
Karthikeyan said
“Guilt is a deadly scam”. Wow! Great! An eye opening statement Sharath Ji!!
hh said
mesquiteice, very nicely put. thanks very much.
if chumber-ji does not like hindusim, he is free to chose any faith he wants. That is his personal choice. Let him not make the mistake of representing the wishes of other millions.
C,L.CHUMBER said
HOW ” SARE JAHAN SE ACHCHA , BHARAT DESH TUMHARA ? ”
AAH SHUDAR KE LIYE HINUSTAAN GHAMKHANA HAI !!!!!
SHARAM AATI HAI ISE APNA WATAN KAHITEY HUEY !!!!
DEAR VIEVERS ,
I FIRST OF ALL I THANK MR MESQUITEICE FOR HIS REMARKS( August 12, 2008 @ 7:38 am) ,” I.understand that you are not against any caste, but you do not like the way some of the people are behaving and ill treating you.” IT IS TRUE THAT I AM VERY MUCH FED UP FROM THE BEHAVIOUR OF A GANG OF SOME PERSONS WHO WROTE BAD REMARKS AGAINST THE ADMINISTRATORS , DR. AMBAWDEKAR , V.T.RAJSEKHAR , KANCHA ILLAIAH , DALITS INCLUDING MYSELF .A FEW YEARS AGO , I BEAT MY PET DOG BITTERLY .HE LEFT OUR HOME .WE TRIED OUR BEST TO PACIFY HIM BUT IN VAIN .I DID LEARN A LESSON FROM THAT SELF RESPECTFUL GOD .IN OUR CULTURE DOG IS WORSHIPED AS GOD FOR HIS SINCERITY TOWARDS MAN.! CHANKYA WAS MISBEHAVED BY THE KING MAHA PADMANAND AND CHANKYA UPROOTED HIM WITH THE HELP OF CHANDER GUPAT MAURYA .DO WE HAVE LESS SELF RESPECT THAN CHANKYA ? IF HE COULD UPROOT A KING , WHY NOT WE CAN UPROOT BRAHMINISM WHICH MADE BILLION TRILLION PEOPLE`S LIVES A HELL ? WILL THE BRAHMINS BEAR THE HUMIAILATION WHICH OUR PEOPLE FACE DUE TO THEM ? THE INDIAN CONSTITUTION IS WITH US AND WE SUFFERERS NEED TO STAND WITH THE CONSTITUTION !!!!!
YOU GOOD SELF REPEATED THE POETRY OF DR.MOHAMAD.IQUBAL .HE ALSO WROTE ,” AAH SHUDAR KE LIYE HINDUSTAAN GHAMKHANA HAI !!!!! SHARAM AATI HAI ISE APNA WATAN KAHITEY HUEY !!!! YOUR COUNTRY AND OUR COUNTRY ARE TWO SIDES OF A COIN JUST LIKE A POSH AREA AND SLUMS OF A METRO CITY .YOU CAN NOT LIVE A NIGHT WITH YOUR FAMILY IN THESE SLUMS . A TRUE GOD WILL NOT SPARE THOSE WHO MAKE THE LIVES A HELL OF INNOCENT , HELPLESS AND POOR CITIZENS OF INDIA . ONE DAY THERE WILL BE A FRENCH REVOLUTION TYPE REVOLUTION TO MAKE OUR COUNTRY AN IDEAL FOR THE WORLD. MY INNER HEART SAY THAT THE DAY IS NEAREST TO US !!!!! PLEASE LET US MAKE OUR COUNTRY FREE FROM RAPIST,RACIST AND FASCIST GODS AND CASTE / VARNA SYSTEM , THESE ARE NOT COMICS STORIES .IF THESE ARE STORIES THEN THE HINDU SCRIPTURES FROM WHICH THESE REFERRED ARE FICTIONS AUTOMATICALLY !!!!!
mesquiteice said
PLEASE NOTE THAT ANYBODY CAN MARRY ANYBODY. NO BODY HAS ANY RIGHT TO MAKE COMMENTS ABOUT OTHERS WIFE OR MARRIAGE.
PLEASE NOTE THAT ANYBODY CAN FOLLOW ANY RELIGION. NO BODY HAS ANY RIGHT TO MAKE COMMENTS ABOUT OTHERS RELIGION.
Dear Chumber Ji,
You are most welcome. However, you have answered only a part of my discussion.
For the sake of viewers i want to say that Chumberji has quoted Dr. Iqbal who is ashamed to call this country as a part of his body?(please correct me if i am wrong)
This country is our motherland. We feel proud about it irrespective of anyone who is ashamed. The Father of our nation said that villages are the heart of our country. we are all proud of our villages as much as we are proud of our software parks and special economic zones. PLEASE DONT CREATE IMPRESSION THAT SLUMS ARE INFERIOR TO OTHER PLACES.
IT IS JUST LIKE SOME PEOPLE GO BY AEROPLANE, SOME PEOPLE GO BY TRAIN, SOME PEOPLE GO BY MOTORCYCLE AND SOME BY CAR. WHAT IS THERE TO BE ASHAMED ABOUT GOING IN MOTORCYCLE OR WALKING. IF YOU FEEL THAT GOING BY TRAIN IS INFERIOR, THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM. DONT BLAME OTHERS.
Please note that i am also fed up with people talking bad about others. Why is dalit nation insulting a person like Dr. Ambedkar? What right does dalit nation have to talk about private life of a person and his marriage and wife etc. He has done so much for our country and yet these people treat him like this. WHY?
I request everybody not to talk bad things about other peoples wifes. Savitaji was the principal source of inspiration to a legendary personality like Babasaheb, who played a pivotal role in framing the Constitution of our country and a good person. Why are you taking mileage from her caste and religion. WHY DONT YOU UNDERSTAND THAT INSPITE OF BEING A BRAHMIN SAVITAJI FOUGHT FOR IMPROVEMENT OF OUR COUNTRY.
ARE THEY TRYING TO TELL THAT SAVITAJI WAS A BAD BECAUSE SHE WAS A BRAHMIN? WE SHOULD LEARN TO TALK GOOD ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE.
PLEASE NOTE THAT MARRIAGES ARE A RESULT OF LOVE. NOBODY HAS RIGHTS TO COMMENT ON OTHER PEOPLES LOVE. I FEEL IT IS NOT CORRECT. PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF YOU FEEL THIS IS CORRECT.
C.L.CHUMBER said
I WILL NOT NEVER TAKE NOTICE OF MR.MESQITEICE WHO IS IRRATIONAL ,WORSHIPER,DEFENDER